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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 06:25:06 AM
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Jehovah my Rock, and my Redeemer (Ps.19:14).
Jehovah God, my Rock, my fortress, the horn of my salvation, my Savior 2Sam.22:2,3.
Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any Isaiah 44:8.
I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior Isaiah 43:11.
I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God but Me; for there is no Savior besides Me Hos.13:4.
I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another Isaiah 42:6,8.
In Paul's writings:
1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
There is only one Rock, not two. God said,Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any Isaiah 44:8. Therefore Jesus Christ was Jehovah God the Father in the flesh. Jesus Christ alone must be approach alone and prayed to, not the Father; the Father is He as a Man. Jesus said in John 14:9,Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. John 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jesus also said, He was the way, truth and the life.
Harry
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Edited by - SpiritualSon on 28 Mar 2006 06:29:03 AM
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Torchdog
USA
6655 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 07:51:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SpiritualSon
Jehovah my Rock, and my Redeemer (Ps.19:14).
Jehovah God, my Rock, my fortress, the horn of my salvation, my Savior 2Sam.22:2,3.
Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any Isaiah 44:8.
I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior Isaiah 43:11.
I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God but Me; for there is no Savior besides Me Hos.13:4.
I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another Isaiah 42:6,8.
In Paul's writings:
1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
There is only one Rock, not two. God said,Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any Isaiah 44:8. Therefore Jesus Christ was Jehovah God the Father in the flesh. Jesus Christ alone must be approach alone and prayed to, not the Father; the Father is He as a Man. Jesus said in John 14:9,Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. John 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jesus also said, He was the way, truth and the life.
Harry
Dear Spirit,
What about the rocks in your head?
I thought Jehovah Witnesses were not allowed to participate on forums. |
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allglo2004
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 11:18:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SpiritualSon
Therefore Jesus Christ was Jehovah God the Father in the flesh. Jesus Christ alone must be approach alone and prayed to, not the Father; the Father is He as a Man. Jesus said in John 14:9,Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. John 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jesus also said, He was the way, truth and the life.
Harry
What you have just read is actually the biggest problem Christianity is facing today,
though we do not like to admit it.
Christians are some of the dumbest people on God's green earth.
We have God saying,
"THIS IS MY SON IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED."
Now, let's be honest. How many times did God say those words?
Then we have Jesus Christ saying,
"Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but GO TO MY BRETHREN, and say to them,
I ascend to MY FATHER, AND YOUR FATHER;
and to MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD."
Okay, so you missed that one.
But for crying out loud,
WHO DID JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, PRAY TO???
And if you tell me, "HIMSELF", I WILL HAVE YOU COMMITTED!
Allan
We MUST worship God IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH. |
Edited by - allglo2004 on 28 Mar 2006 11:19:53 AM |
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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 9:52:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mike waters
Hi again Harry,
That didn't take too long.
I see you're a 'Swedenborgite' (not a JW).
And I find what I guess will be your clarification in a pevious post.
quote:
Man is soul, body and spirit, and yet one person. Jesus Christ also had a Soul, Body and Spirit, which is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit. We have a trinity in us, and so did Jesus Christ. Our trinity is human, the Lord's Trinity is Divine, the God head.
Well I'll bear that in mind but I would need to be very very certain before accepting that God would wait 1,600 years before correcting the misconception of the Trinity via 'Swedenborgory'. Although I must admit that I can think of other misconceptions that have hung around for just as long!
However the process of becoming very very certain would have been helped if you had answered such as Boullan's question:
quote:
First, where do you get the idea that God is a "person" at all? I can't think of any Scriputre that says God is a "person" let alone "three persons" as is taught by most Trinitarians.
Equally disturbing is the following qoute from your promoted link:
quote:
The conclusion that God is in three Persons is extremely puzzling to anyone of a reflective turn of mind, because his common sense tells him that there simply cannot be three Divine Persons, or three Divine Beings.
'Common Sense' is far from the catalist via which man will ever get an understanding of what is probably beyond his capabilty in any case.
It's back to 'Faith' for me which is almost contradicted by any presumption to 'Know' the fullest details of the 'mystery of Godliness'
Blessing....Mike
Always be kind and gentle, the other person is probably suffering from rejection and mental instability.
Mike,
I see you are a Catholic. This topic is about Jesus Christ being the Rock, not Peter. The Son of God, means the Father Divine Human. The Father and He are one.
Jesus did not build His church on Peter, but on what Peter said.
Jesus asked His disciples, saying, Who do men say that I am? Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus said, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jonah. I say unto thee, that upon this rock I will build my church (Matt.16:13-18).
The Lord said that upon this rock, that is, upon the truth and the confession that He is the Son of God, He would build His church; for "rock" signifies truth, and also the Lord in respect to Divine Truth. So with those who do not confess this truth that He is the Son of God, the church is not; therefore it is said above, that this is the first principle of faith in Jesus Christ, and is faith in its origin.
John the Baptist saw and bare witness that this is the Son of God (John 1:34).
The Disciple Nathanael said to Jesus, Thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel (John 1:49).
The twelve disciples said, We have believed that Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God (John 6:69).
He is called the only begotten Son of God, and the only begotten from the Father, who is in the bosom of the Father (John 1:14,18;3:16).
Jesus Himself confessed before the high priest, that He was the Son of God (Matt.26:63,64; 27:43; Mark 14:61,62; Luke 22:70).
They that were in the ship came and worshiped Jesus, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God (Matt. 14:33).
The eunuch who wished to be baptized, said to Philip, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 3:37).
Paul, when he was converted, preached Christ, that He was the Son of God (Acts 9:20).
Jesus said, The hour cometh, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live (John 5:25).
He that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18).
These are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in His name (John 20:31).
These things have I written unto you who believe in the name of the Son of God that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).
We know that the Son of God is come, and hath given that we may know Him that is True, and we are in Him that is True, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20).
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him and he in God (1 John 4:15).
Harry |
Edited by - SpiritualSon on 29 Mar 2006 05:28:32 AM |
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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 05:56:09 AM
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Jesus Christ as the "Rock" means Divine Truth.
By "the Son of God" is signified the Divine Truth, because by "sons" in the Word signifies truths; "the Son of God" therefore means the Divine Truth. by "the Son of God from eternity" is meant the proceeding Divine which is called the Divine Truth, and from which is heaven; and,likewise, the Lord in the world was the Divine Truth, which afterwards proceeded from Him. It is that they are called "sons of God" who are recipients of the Divine truth. In heaven, there many sons. Truth can be express many ways as there are angels in heaven and men of earth. Each has their own understanding of truth. For this reason one of God's name is called Elohim, which means God of gods. Those who become sons of God are called little gods. Like Father, like son.
Harry |
Edited by - SpiritualSon on 29 Mar 2006 05:59:09 AM |
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 12:39:35 AM
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It was Jesus himself who gave Peter his name meaning rock. I would not care to contradict him.
It may be helpful to understand some Hebrew. The word for "stone" is the same as the word for "son." Spiritual houses are built by either--call them what you please, either spiritual stones or spiritual sons--it matters neither to me.
In personification on earth here below, the foundation stone of the New Temple was Jesus Christ; and he BUILT upon that rock, stone upon stone. The fair city described by John has as its foundations the twelve Apostles; and foremost among these was Peter.
Mt 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Enough of this rebellion against Jesus' appointment of Peter to take over affairs on earth when he ascended to heaven. Jesus was also the Good Shepherd; and when he left, he also put him in charge as shepherd in his stead:
John 21:17 - He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Now we know where Peter got his authority. We know upon rock he placed himself as another stone. Upon what foundation are others building? If it is not Apostolic, the least I would expect would not to attack those do build, stone by stone, upon the the twelve rocks of the New Jerusalem, appointed by Jesus himself.
No, I am not a Catholic, not Orthodox. But I will not attack the Apostolic foundations, and I will not support those who scatter the flocks by rebellion, seeking to establish their own authority by tearing down others. I will not attack those who have churches not built on Apostolic foundations--but it is going too far when such people attack Peter and defy the authority given him by Jesus himself. Peter knew his place--exactly--and understood the making of the Temple not built by human hands:
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 - Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
I suspect Peter may have even known a little Hebrew when he speaks of building spiritual houses with stones.
Boullan |
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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 05:57:10 AM
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You are Peter and upon this rock* I will build my church. Matt. 16:18ff.
This does not mean power was given to Peter, but to truth arising from good; for all power in the heavens belongs to truth arising from good, or to good acting by means of truth, and because all good and truth come from the Lord, and nothing is from man, all power belongs to the Lord.
The Lord's twelve disciples represented the church in all respects concerning truth and good or faith and love, in the same way as the twelve tribes of Israel. Peter, James and John represented faith, charity and the good works of charity. Peter stands for faith. Peter being given the keys of the kingdom of the heavens means that all power belongs to truth coming from good, or faith coming from charity which is from the Lord; and so that all power belongs to the Lord. A key is the power of opening and closing. Good has all power by means of truths, in other words, truths have all power from good which is from the Lord.
The Holy Word of God has a natural spiritual and a spiritual sense. The natural sense is the Word's foundation. The spiritual sense is what makes the Holy Word Divine. The Holy Word was written in heaven at the sametime it was written on earth by natural man. The angels understand the Word in its spiritual sense. Man on earth, as well as angels in heaven is able to understand the Word in the spiritual sense if his mind as been open by the lord. The minds of men on earth has been close up because of their beliefs in three Divine persons. They see the Word only in its natural sense. The angels also have a Holy Bible; and in that Bible the word Peter is not written. The words "truth from good" is written in the place of Peter.
Harry |
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Torchdog
USA
6655 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 4:23:40 PM
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quote:
The Holy Word of God has a natural spiritual and a spiritual sense. The natural sense is the Word's foundation. The spiritual sense is what makes the Holy Word Divine. The Holy Word was written in heaven at the sametime it was written on earth by natural man. The angels understand the Word in its spiritual sense. Man on earth, as well as angels in heaven is able to understand the Word in the spiritual sense if his mind as been open by the lord. The minds of men on earth has been close up because of their beliefs in three Divine persons. They see the Word only in its natural sense. The angels also have a Holy Bible; and in that Bible the word Peter is not written. The words "truth from good" is written in the place of Peter.
Dear SpiritualSonofSatan,
The angels you are referring to are called fallen angels. They have given you this unique ability to know what Jesus meant when He spoke to Peter. Does the Trinity concept bother you and your fallen friends?
I can understand why. The Redemption of man caught the fallen spirits with their pants down.
It was very embarrassing for the prideful egos of the fallen spirits.
I think your absurd interpretations of the Word will need much more explanation with the knowledgeable group on this forum.
You come here and deliver nonsense and expect to be challenged.
No one is going to take you seriously unless you provide some evidence.
For starters, what are your credentials to comment on scripture?
Give us some footnotes instead putting your foot in your mouth. |
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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 6:29:36 PM
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From you
The angels you are referring to are called fallen angels. They have given you this unique ability to know what Jesus meant when He spoke to Peter. Does the Trinity concept bother you and your fallen friends?
I can understand why. The Redemption of man caught the fallen spirits with their pants down.
It was very embarrassing for the prideful egos of the fallen spirits.
I think your absurd interpretations of the Word will need much more explanation with the knowledgeable group on this forum.
You come here and deliver nonsense and expect to be challenged.
No one is going to take you seriously unless you provide some evidence.
For starters, what are your credentials to comment on scripture?
Give us some footnotes instead putting your foot in your mouth.
Please don't answer my post anymore, and I won't answer yours.
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Edited by - SpiritualSon on 30 Mar 2006 6:32:07 PM |
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 7:35:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SpiritualSon
[size=2]You are Peter and upon this rock* I will build my church. Matt. 16:18ff.
This does not mean power was given to Peter, but to truth arising from good; for all power in the heavens belongs to truth arising from good, or to good acting by means of truth, and because all good and truth come from the Lord, and nothing is from man, all power belongs to the Lord.
I do not follow your interpretation of this passage...not at all. Where does this passage mention "truth arising from good"? I don't see it. And whom do you mean when you say "the Lord"? Do you mean Jesus? He said himself:
Joh 8:28 - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
He also attributed no goodness to himself:
Mr 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
So what do you mean?
quote:
The Lord's twelve disciples represented the church in all respects concerning truth and good or faith and love, in the same way as the twelve tribes of Israel. Peter, James and John represented faith, charity and the good works of charity. Peter stands for faith. Peter being given the keys of the kingdom of the heavens means that all power belongs to truth coming from good, or faith coming from charity which is from the Lord; and so that all power belongs to the Lord. A key is the power of opening and closing. Good has all power by means of truths, in other words, truths have all power from good which is from the Lord.
Regrettably, Swedenborg never studied kaballah. In the "tree of life" the ten lights are arranged in three pillars. The pillar to the left is severity, law and faith. The center pillar is the kingdom; and the pillar to the right is charity and mercy. When Paul, a kaballist, mentions them as "pillars" he gives them in the order the pillars appear: James the Just/faith/law/severity; Peter/kingdom; and John the Beloved/Love/Charity. When Jesus mentions these three, he ALWAYS goes from the bottom up--Peter first since only this pillar is expressed in the kingdom, and then James and John. James is the Apostle of true faith--who wrote faith without works is dead.
quote:
The Holy Word of God has a natural spiritual and a spiritual sense.
Yes, I am aware of this.
quote:
The natural sense is the Word's foundation. The spiritual sense is what makes the Holy Word Divine. The Holy Word was written in heaven at the sametime it was written on earth by natural man. The angels understand the Word in its spiritual sense.
You are taking Swedenborg's word for this, I suppose? Well, some of what he says is accurate enough--and it is true that angels understand much of the spiritual sense of Holy Writ. I have been instructed myself by angels. That part of what he says is true.
quote:
Man on earth, as well as angels in heaven is able to understand the Word in the spiritual sense if his mind as been open by the lord. The minds of men on earth has been close up because of their beliefs in three Divine persons. They see the Word only in its natural sense.
Well, poor Swedenborg's mind was closed because of his obsessive personification of God in Jesus. Despite his many visions, there were things which he never saw because of this self-imposed limitation. I read some of his material; and I had bought a biography of William Blake at the same time. I found that I reached the same conclusion Blake reached. Both Blake and I started off enthusiastically thinking Swedenborg was wonderful; but in the end, he had severe limitations. You can tell it when you read him--he always get very long-winded when he gets on a topic he's wrong about--and very repetitive. Swedenborg was shut out of parts of heaven.
quote:
The angels also have a Holy Bible; and in that Bible the word Peter is not written. The words "truth from good" is written in the place of Peter.
Have you seen this Bible? I daresay not. Swedenborg also said that no Jewish prophets were ever seen in Heaven. Well, it took me a while before I met up with one; but I can tell you Abraham and Sarah are alive today, just as they were in the day when Jesus reprimanded people, saying God is the God of the living and not the dead. If God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then they are alive. I assure you Abraham is doing well. I did not speak to him but to Sarah. Abraham did smile at me, but he was busy talking to others.
There are also things which even the angels do not know. It is indeed possible for men to know some things hidden from some angels. It would not surprise me, if in the section of Heaven Swedenborg saw such a book, the angels could not understand "Peter" as a heavenly phrase. After all, there remains problems to this very day over the fate of Peter.
Swedenborg fell into idolatry. God is not a man, never was a man. Can God die? The idea is silly. Jesus made of himself NOTHING; and by making of himself nothing, becoming the servant of all, the glory of God was made manifest IN him, in its fullness. God is not visible to eyes--no one has seen God with physical eyes.
Nu 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
It amazes me that Swedenborg KNEW that people were protected in Heaven from knowing certain things--arranged in sections, not everyone being told everything--but then he thought he had access to it all. It never occurred to him that his own mental limitations may have restricted what he saw.
You are repeating things you do not know, just as many Christians repeat things they have been taught without knowing what they're talking about. I will grant you that many things Swedenborg saw were authentic--but it is what he makes of those things that I disagree with. Angels can err--they are not infallible--they aren't told everything--don't know everything--some thins are hidden from them. Thus, if he saw a book angels were reading without "Peter" in it, I would not make the same assumption he does.
Let us look more at the Scripture:
Mt 16:19 - And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
How shall we read this then? What words need to be altered? I don't need to change any of them. I know what these keys are, what they do, and why Peter was given them. You say: quote:
Peter being given the keys of the kingdom of the heavens means that all power belongs to truth coming from good, or faith coming from charity which is from the Lord
That is very convoluted to me. A key is something you can lock a room with. Peter could lock up powers on in heaven if he locked them up on earth; and he could unlock them in heaven if he unlocked them on earth.
Swedenborg did not study Kaballah, I repeat. Certain principles evaded him. He was a mystic, but he could not bind or loose anything.
Perhaps, he did not seek first the Will of God. What does Heaven want? That is the first step--being willing to conform self to the pattern of Heaven--enquiring of Heaven. The next step then is to call for the holy angels to come to do that. It is the RIGHT and PRIVILEGE of man, and of man only, to exercise dominion over the earth; and he may summon either the angels or the demons. Jesus came as a MAN then because only a man has lawful dominion over the earth. Heaven will not interfere with earth unless a man asks. Surely, I have Scriptures for that.
Amos 3:7 - Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
As I said, God's will is first revealed to men on earth when they enquire and then they must ask--the LIVING WORD proceeds from their mouths.
Isa 45:11 - Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Yes, absolutely yes, it was necessary that Peter become good so that truth could be revealed through him. That was the struggle Jesus had with him, taming the satanic in Peter. Peter's reliance on his own strength had to be subjected to the Will of God. Peter like Jesus had to make of himself nothing.
Boullan
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Edited by - boullan on 30 Mar 2006 7:39:17 PM |
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 03:20:37 AM
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To Mike Waters,
I thank you for those words. You didn't disrupt me--I hope no one else has been. While we are off subject, let me say I read your thread about quoting scriptures. I want to respond but I need to look up what Rabbi Maimonides says about the different types of inspiration. You may find the categories interesting. The Jewish position is quite different from most Christian positions.
Boullan
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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 8:34:04 PM
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Revelation 17
Verse 1. "And there came one of the seven angels that had the seven vials, and spoke with me." This signifies influx and revelation now from the Lord out of the inmost of heaven, concerning the Roman Catholic religion. "Saying unto me, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters." This signifies revelation concerning that religion as to its profanations and adulterations of the truths of the Word.
Verse 2. "With whom the kings of the earth committed whoredom." This signifies that it has adulterated the truths and goods of the church which are from the Word. "And the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her whoredom." This signifies insanity in spiritual things from the adulteration of the Word with those who are in that religion.
Verse 3. "And he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness." This signifies that he was carried in a spiritual state to those with whom all things of the church were devastated. "And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy." This signifies that religion founded upon the Word profaned by them. "Having seven heads and ten horns." This signifies intelligence from the Word, holy at the beginning, afterwards none, and at length insanity, and much power from the Word continually.
Verse 4. "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet." This signifies the celestial Divine good and Divine truth, which are of the Word, among them. "And inwrought with gold and precious stones."This signifies spiritual Divine good and Divine truth, which are of the Word, with them. "And pearls." This signifies the knowledges of good and truth, which are of the Word, with them. "Having a golden cup in her hand, full of abominations and uncleanness of her whoredom." This signifies the Catholic religion from the holy things of the Word profaned, and from its goods and truths defiled by direful falsities.
Verse 5. "Upon her forehead* written, Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of whoredoms and abominations of the earth." This signifies the Roman Catholic religion, as to its interior quality, which is concealed, that from its origin, from the love of dominating, from the love of self over the holy things of the church and over heaven, and thus over all things of the Lord and His Word, it has defiled and profaned the things which are of the Word and thence of the church.
Verse 6. "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." This signifies the Catholic religion insane from adulterated and profaned Divine Truths and goods of the Lord, of the Word, and of the church. "And when I saw her I wondered with great wonder." This signifies astonishment that the Catholic religion is such interiorly, when yet it appears otherwise exteriorly.
Verse 7. "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore dost thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns." This signifies the disclosure of what the things which precede and were seen signify.
Verse 8. "The beast which thou sawest was, and is not." This signifies the Word acknowledged as holy with them, and yet really not acknowledged. "And is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition." This signifies deliberation at different times in the Papal Consistory respecting the reception and reading of the Word by the laity and the common people, but rejected. "And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, seeing the beast which was, and is not, and yet is." This signifies the amazement of those who are of the Catholic religion, all who from its establishment have aimed at dominion over heaven and earth, that the Word, although rejected, still is.
Verse 9. "This is the mind that hath wisdom." This signifies that this
is the interpretation in the natural sense, but for those who are in the spiritual sense from the Lord. "The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sitteth upon them
verse 10: and they are seven kings." This signifies the Divine goods and Divine truths of the Word, upon which the religion is founded, destroyed in time, and at length profaned. "Five have fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he is come, he must remain a short time." This signifies that all the Divine Truths of the Word have been destroyed except this one, that all the power in heaven and in earth was given to Jesus Christ; and except another, which has not yet come into question, but will not remain, which is, that the Lord's Human is Divine.
Verse 11. "And the beast, that was, and is not, is himself the eighth, and is of the seven, and he goeth into perdition." This signifies that the Holy Word, as explained, is the Divine Good itself, and that it is the Divine Truth; and that it is taken away from the laity and the common people, lest the profanations and adulterations made in it by their leaders should appear, and they should on that account recede.
Verse 12. "And the ten horns** are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom." This signifies the Word as to power from Divine Truths with those who are in the kingdom of France, and are not so much under the yoke of the Papal dominion; with whom however there has not yet been formed a church fully separated from the Roman Catholic religion. "But they receive authority as kings one hour with the beast." This signifies that the Word has power with them, and they by the Word are as if they were in its Divine Truths.
Verse 13. "These have one mind, and they shall give their power and authority to the beast." This signifies that they acknowledge unanimously that government and dominion over the church are solely through the Word.
Verse 14. "These shall fight with the Lamb, but the Lamb shall overcome them; for He is Jesus Christ the Lord, who is Lord of lords and King of kings." This signifies the Lord's combat with them concerning the acknowledgment of His Divine Human, because in it the Lord is the God of heaven and earth, and is also the Word. "And they who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." This signifies that they who approach and worship the Lord alone are they that come into heaven, as well they who are in the externals of the church as they that are in its internals and inmosts.
Verse 15. "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples and multitudes, and nations and tongues." This signifies that they are under the Papal dominion, but in the truths of the Word variously adulterated and profaned by the Catholic religion, who are of its varieties of doctrine and discipline, and its varieties of religion and confession.
Verse 16. "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot." This signifies the Word as to power from Divine truths with the Protestants, who have altogether cast off from themselves the yoke of the Papal dominion. "And shall make her desolate and naked." This signifies that they will put off from themselves its falsities and evils. "And shall eat her flesh, and burn her up with fire." This signifies that from hatred they will condemn and destroy from among themselves the evils and falsities which are proper to the religion, and will hold that religion itself accursed, and will blot it out from among them.
Verse 17. "For God gave into their hearts to do His mind, and to do one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast." This signifies judgment with them from the Lord, that they should altogether repudiate and hold accursed the Roman Catholic religion, and should destroy and root it out from among themselves; and the unanimous judgment, that they should acknowledge the Word, and should found the church upon it. "Until the words of God should be consummated." This signifies until all the things which have been foretold concerning them shall be fulfilled.
Verse 18. "And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city that hath a kingdom over the kings of the earth." This signifies that the Roman Catholic religion reigns as to doctrine in the Christian world, and also still in some measure among the Protestants, although they are not under the Papal dominion.
Papal dominion, means the Catholic Chruch thinks and believes it holds the keys, and yet Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Rock and key holder.
Verse 16 and 17 had come to pass in the 16th century, when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church.
Believe it or not.
Harry
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Edited by - SpiritualSon on 05 Apr 2006 08:23:06 AM |
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boullan
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10894 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 7:19:15 PM
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Renelation 17
Verse 1. "And there came one of the seven angels that had the seven vials, and spoke with me." This signifies influx and revelation now from the Lord out of the inmost of heaven, concerning the Roman Catholic religion.
I don't see it, sorry. If there is a connection, I don't see it. It's says an angel was speaking to John--how that gets stretched to mean what you say is beyond the scope of my understanding.
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"Saying unto me, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters." This signifies revelation concerning that religion as to its profanations and adulterations of the truths of the Word.
Let me reprove you and Swedenborg. How dare you or he steal what the Catholic mystics said for centuries in love and reverence and then repeat it pretending it is your own idea and using it to rend the unity of Christendom?
Yes, the Catholic mystics said that the Whore of Babylon represents the church. So Swedenborg has nothing new to say, here. Any VISIBLE, EARTHLY church is NOT the real church which is ABOVE--the Bride of Christ, the Woman Clothed in Sun--in Heaven. There is no perfect church in earthly manifestation. The saints and mystics of Rome said so. Hildegaarde von Bingen said so, for one.
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Verse 2. "With whom the kings of the earth committed whoredom." This signifies that it has adulterated the truths and goods of the church which are from the Word. "And the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her whoredom." This signifies insanity in spiritual things from the adulteration of the Word with those who are in that religion.
Let us examine the facts to see what religion played the harlot in the 16th Century.
When that century dawned, we see the efforts of Pope Julius II to rid the Church of the influence of kings and princes. Do not forget how the Kings of France had made several Popes into their pawns at Avignon, reducing the Church to its whore. Julius was in a precarious position--balancing the machinations of France, Spain and Germany. Each one sought to control the Papacy; and Julius sought to free the Church of such worldly domination. If that meant raising armies himself, he would do it.
Well, in a few years, we see the German Emperor sending down his French hireling to take another Pope prisoner. Yes, "from the North."
For years, the various princes of Germany had withheld the income from church property also, either never sending it or withholding it to gain concessions. They eyed the properties of the church with greedy eyes--why send money to Rome if they could have it?
In this unpleasant situation, Luther appeared. Luther was meant to be a prophet of God--yes, he was--and in the beginning, he was. Had he remained true, he could have been a powerful influence reforming the Church. He did not remain true. He turned his back on Mother Mary and said horrible things about her--when previously he had lauded her. He turned his back on the Jews, reviling them because he was afraid of being accused of being their pawn--when previously, he was in favor of tolerance--and the horrible things he said about Jews was used later by Hitler with great effect.
Luther gave in to political pressure. The German princes LOVED having someone of his caliber justify their thefts and rebellion with high-flying theology.
You've called Rome this? You tell me why Henry VIII turned on Rome? He established his own church and confiscated all church property. He MIXED religion and politics and money. Who is the whoremonger? Who set up a religion for power and money? Go figure. It's rich then to hear you criticize Rome for its associations when Protestantism was founded by men motivated by power and money. What a perverse revising of history.
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Verse 3. "And he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness." This signifies that he was carried in a spiritual state to those with whom all things of the church were devastated. "And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy." This signifies that religion founded upon the Word profaned by them.
This would be amusing if it were not so frightening wrong. The "scarlet beast" is that beast which arises out of the sea. Am I wrong? Your interpretation equates "the Word" with "beast that rises out of the sea."
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"Having seven heads and ten horns." This signifies intelligence from the Word, holy at the beginning, afterwards none, and at length insanity, and much power from the Word continually.
Somewhat related--not entirely wrong. However! The Word is associated with the Heaven of Air--where the Trumps and Thunders are. It is not associated with Sea and Vials--this is Water. The Word is of Air not Sea or Water.
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Verse 4. "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet." This signifies the celestial Divine good and Divine truth, which are of the Word, among them.
It shows an association with royalty. I remind you it is written that Satan is the "god of this world."
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"And inwrought with gold and precious stones."This signifies spiritual Divine good and Divine truth, which are of the Word, with them. "And pearls." This signifies the knowledges of good and truth, which are of the Word, with them. "Having a golden cup in her hand, full of abominations and uncleanness of her whoredom." This signifies the Catholic religion from the holy things of the Word profaned, and from its goods and truths defiled by direful falsities.
It signifies ALL EARTHLY CHURCHES. The outward appearance is glorious and grand; and they may even have virtues; but anyone who worships this as an institution is an idolater.
Let me add, what while Rome had its confusions and whoredoms BEFORE Luther, Zwingli and the rest, the babble of confused tongues has only increased since their day. Today, no one understands anything. Yes, do not forget that Babylon was built around the Tower of Babel. I can think of no better symbol for the rampant confusion of tongues in Christianity than the Tower of Babel. Swedenborg added to the babble.
We need people who seek to heal the wounds of Christendom, to bring it back together--not men who revile and rebel.
Lu 11:23 - He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
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Verse 5. "Upon her forehead* written, Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of whoredoms and abominations of the earth." This signifies the Roman Catholic religion, as to its interior quality, which is concealed, that from its origin, from the love of dominating, from the love of self over the holy things of the church and over heaven, and thus over all things of the Lord and His Word, it has defiled and profaned the things which are of the Word and thence of the church.
Yes, so? You wish to find a perfect church in visible manifestation on earth and worship it? In vain, in vain--only God is worthy of worship. We are born on earth in error and ignorance; and if we have correct humility, we recognize this state in ourselves. Yes, we see it in others as well--but who then should "cast the first stone?" This is satanic to level charges at Rome, although it is a corrupt church. All physical churches are corrupt--but out of their mistaken teachings and fallen ways, they still bring us up. I am grateful to the church then--with all its errors. May God forgive me and it.
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Verse 6. "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." This signifies the Catholic religion insane from adulterated and profaned Divine Truths and goods of the Lord, of the Word, and of the church. "And when I saw her I wondered with great wonder." This signifies astonishment that the Catholic religion is such interiorly, when yet it appears otherwise exteriorly.
I shudder to think of how Luther can make answer, when his decision to break with Rome led MILLIONS to their deaths in the wars which followed. Kings would persecute anyone who had a different religion; and heresy was considered also treason. These millions of people died, both Catholic and Protestant, because Kings wanted all their subjects to obey them, not to threaten their rule by seeking to impose their own religion. You see the same quarrel today in Iraq among Muslims where each side wants to impose his brand of Islam on the other. Luther opened the box by providing theological reasons for Kings to break with Rome and to establish their own churches. What an abomination.
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Verse 7. "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore dost thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns." This signifies the disclosure of what the things which precede and were seen signify.
Well, that makes short work of that "mystery," doesn't it?
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Verse 8. "The beast which thou sawest was, and is not." This signifies the Word acknowledged as holy with them, and yet really not acknowledged. "And is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition." This signifies deliberation at different times in the Papal Consistory respecting the reception and reading of the Word by the laity and the common people, but rejected.
This is totally fanciful. I could just as easily say, "This shows how the Sunni Muslims are perverting the Holy Quran." There would be the same lack of connection in ideas.
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"And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, seeing the beast which was, and is not, and yet is." This signifies the amazement of those who are of the Catholic religion, all who from its establishment have aimed at dominion over heaven and earth, that the Word, although rejected, still is.
Note this: The text says that those "whose names are not in the Book of Life"--and you say this means "those who of the Catholic religion." This is condemning an entire religion--for shame!
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Verse 9. "This is the mind that hath wisdom." This signifies that this
is the interpretation in the natural sense, but for those who are in the spiritual sense from the Lord. "The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sitteth upon them
What? This makes no sense to me--and I do have a spiritual sense.
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verse 10: and they are seven kings." This signifies the Divine goods and Divine truths of the Word, upon which the religion is founded, destroyed in time, and at length profaned.
It seems to me that when an area that can't be explained is approached, the "Word" get plugged into a sentence. I've seldom seen anyone use this word, "Word," so overly much.
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"Five have fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he is come, he must remain a short time." This signifies that all the Divine Truths of the Word have been destroyed except this one, that all the power in heaven and in earth was given to Jesus Christ; and except another, which has not yet come into question, but will not remain, which is, that the Lord's Human is Divine.
This again makes no sense corresponding to what the actual text says. It's as if someone took some lines from the Bible at RANDOM and then said, "This is what they mean."
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Verse 11. "And the beast, that was, and is not, is himself the eighth, and is of the seven, and he goeth into perdition." This signifies that the Holy Word, as explained, is the Divine Good itself, and that it is the Divine Truth; and that it is taken away from the laity and the common people, lest the profanations and adulterations made in it by their leaders should appear, and they should on that account recede.
I remind you that this beast is the beast which comes out of the sea. It is not a Divine Attribute.
This style is always perplexing. Politicians use it when they want to obfuscate--use lots of abstract words. Just what does this mean? "This signifies that the Holy Word, as explained, is the Divine Good itself, and that it is the Divine Truth...." There's not a concrete noun in the entire phrase. It's all abstract--one could make one's self dizzy trying to figure out such abstract things with no references for them.
I assure you: REVELATION is a REVELATION. It is meant to be understood. It is not meant to be so ethereal and abstract that our brains sizzle. A symbol STANDS for some THING. Some THING REAL. Symbols and absstractions relate to REALITY. This sort of thinking takes symbols and makes them even more abstract--that is not REVELATION, it is OBFUSCATION. quote:
Verse 12. "And the ten horns** are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom." This signifies the Word as to power from Divine Truths with those who are in the kingdom of France, and are not so much under the yoke of the Papal dominion; with whom however there has not yet been formed a church fully separated from the Roman Catholic religion. "But they receive authority as kings one hour with the beast." This signifies that the Word has power with them, and they by the Word are as if they were in its Divine Truths.
Ten kings of France in one hour? Obvious, isn't it?
I say we're missing the point--Revelation begins:
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
We err grievously if we do not accept verse 1 as true. Throw this book away if you can't accept verse 1. The things which John wrote did "shortly come to pass." If they did not, he was a false prophet. Or shall we substitute abstract words for "shortly come to pass"?
Yes, they did come to pass; and those who read this book and kept the things in it WERE blessed. The time was at hand, as John wrote.
Swedenborg correctly states that Scripture has a material and spiritual sense. I happen to think it has layer upon layer upon layer. While I demand that Revelation be explained as applying to John's day, I believe it is equally true today. Surely, it was true also of the day when the Kings of France plotted; but if we fail to understand the most OBVIOUS sense of how it was true in John's day, then we cannot possibly grasp how it was true then or how it could be true today.
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Verse 13. "These have one mind, and they shall give their power and authority to the beast." This signifies that they acknowledge unanimously that government and dominion over the church are solely through the Word.
History shows that Kings seek to establish religion that benefits them. The precedent of killing Muslims who dare to convert to Christianity goes back to a Caliph--not to Mohammed, not to the Quran which says Religion should not be a matter of compulsion. It's not unique to Rome; but when Rome was the big power, it was the big target of the machinations of kings.
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Verse 14. "These shall fight with the Lamb, but the Lamb shall overcome them; for He is Jesus Christ the Lord, who is Lord of lords and King of kings." This signifies the Lord's combat with them concerning the acknowledgment of His Divine Human, because in it the Lord is the God of heaven and earth, and is also the Word.
Confused theology. If I have a lamb, that lamb is not me. Jesus is the Lamb of God--not God. Nor is the "Word" of God equal to God--not anymore than my words are me. They proceed from me, just as Jesus came from God.
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"And they who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." This signifies that they who approach and worship the Lord alone are they that come into heaven, as well they who are in the externals of the church as they that are in its internals and inmosts.
Jesus told the woman at the well that the JEWS have the right idea about God. He did not tell her he was God. The Jews still have the knowledge of God--possessing the lively oracles--yes ORAL--Words--of God.
John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
A strange thing for God to say! "WE"--meaning the Jews--KNOW what WE worship.
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Verse 15. "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples and multitudes, and nations and tongues." This signifies that they are under the Papal dominion, but in the truths of the Word variously adulterated and profaned by the Catholic religion, who are of its varieties of doctrine and discipline, and its varieties of religion and confession.
This is naive to give this text such a physical interpretation. Again, we see confusion between Trumps, Thunders, the Word of AIR, and the Vials, the cup, the sea of WATER. You do not know what "upper waters" and "lower waters" are.
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Verse 16. "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot." This signifies the Word as to power from Divine truths with the Protestants, who have altogether cast off from themselves the yoke of the Papal dominion. "And shall make her desolate and naked." This signifies that they will put off from themselves its falsities and evils. "And shall eat her flesh, and burn her up with fire." This signifies that from hatred they will condemn and destroy from among themselves the evils and falsities which are proper to the religion, and will hold that religion itself accursed, and will blot it out from among them.
John informs us in Chapter 1, verse 1--these things would shortly come to pass. Your interpretation is flawed because you made "shortly" into over 1500 years. You neglect to say how those who read the book and kept the sayings in it in John's era were blessed. They couldn't have been, not if this took 1500 years to happen. Let us not turn the Bible, Heaven and Earth upside down to justify our hatred of Rome.
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Verse 17. "For God gave into their hearts to do His mind, and to do one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast." This signifies judgment with them from the Lord, that they should altogether repudiate and hold accursed the Roman Catholic religion, and should destroy and root it out from among themselves; and the unanimous judgment, that they should acknowledge the Word, and should found the church upon it. "Until the words of God should be consummated." This signifies until all the things which have been foretold concerning them shall be fulfilled.
As ye judge, so shall ye be judged.
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Verse 18. "And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city that hath a kingdom over the kings of the earth." This signifies that the Roman Catholic religion reigns as to doctrine in the Christian world, and also still in some measure among the Protestants, although they are not under the Papal dominion.
Yes, it includes the Protestants--and I would not say "some" measure--I would say in "large" measure. Why wish to take the mote of your neighbor's eye when you have a beam in your own?
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Papal dominion, means the Catholic Chruch thinks and believes it holds the keys, and yet Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Rock and key holder.
Hell itself cannot prevail against the Church. Swedenborg will not either. You've ignored my earlier post about building the Temple not made by hands, stone upon stone. Well, that is how it is done. Do not defame the foundations of the Holy City which are Apostolic--Jesus worked and works through his servants--that is why he told them they would do greater works than he did. They did, too--but it was Jesus working through them by their humble submission to his Authority. They did not puff themselves up with pride and criticize others who had gone on before them; they did not defy lawfully ordained authority, even when human stumbled and failed. Who can lay any charge to God's elect?
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Verse 16 and 17 had come to pass in the 16th century, when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church.
Then John wrote lies in Revelation 1:1.
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Believe it or not.
Not, thank you. I know what I worship.
Boullan |
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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 06:26:42 AM
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Verse 16 and 17 had come to pass in the 16th century, when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church.
Then John wrote lies in Revelation 1:1.
John was not lying in Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly (surely)come to pass; and He signified, sending by His angel to His servant John.
verse 1. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." This signifies predictions from the Lord concerning Himself and His Church, what the latter will be in its end, and what it will be afterwards. "Which God gave unto Him to show unto His servants." This signifies for those who are in faith from charity. "Things which must shortly come to pass." signifies that they will certainly be, lest the Church perish. "And He signified, sending by His angel, to His servant John." This signifies the things which are revealed by the Lord through heaven to those who are in the good of life from charity and its faith.
You are forgetting that the King James Bible was written in the early 17th century grammar. The word "shortly" was change into the word "surely" The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly (surely)come to pass; and He signified, sending by His angel to His servant John. It is not written which century these thing will happen, but it did happen in the 16th century with Martin Luther, Revelation 17:16-17 points to that.
Revelations of John is about the fall of the Roman Catholic and Protestant Church, and the coming of a New Church in Revelation 21:2. It is not about the end of the world. "And I John saw the holy city New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven." This signifies the New Church to be established by the Lord at the end of the former church, which will be consociated with the New Heaven in Divine Truths as to doctrine and as to life. "Prepared as a bride adorned* for her husband." This signifies that church conjoined with the Lord through the Word.
Harry
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 8:38:51 PM
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Who changed the word "shortly" to "surely"? The KJV reads, "shortly." That is a very good translation of the Greek original. The Greek original was not changed when the KJV was put together.
"Surely" would be a terrible translation of "tachos." "Tachos" means fast. Our "tachometers" measure "speed." Our word "tachyon" means "very fast" or "faster." So what do you mean that this word was changed? Who changed it? Swedenborg? I have a copy in the original Greek--was that changed as well? I don't understand what you mean.
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You are forgetting that the King James Bible was written in the early 17th century grammar. The word "shortly" was change into the word "surely" The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly (surely)come to pass; and He signified, sending by His angel to His servant John. It is not written which century these thing will happen, but it did happen in the 16th century with Martin Luther, Revelation 17:16-17 points to that.
This has nothing to do with translation of a word. The KJV translation has its problems; but it's accurate here. "Tachos" means "quickly" or "shortly."
You've got to twist the sense of the meaning of the Greek word "tachos" to get "surely" out of it. I ask, also, if it means "surely" there, should we change our Bibles everywhere this word is found in the Greek texts? It occurs seven times.
Lu 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily <surely>. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Ac 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly <surely>. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Ac 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly <surely> out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Ac 25:4 But Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly <surely> thither.
Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly <surely>. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly <surely> come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Re 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly <surely> be done.
The related word "tachu" occurs in Revelation 7 times and elsewhere 6 times. It's translated as "quickly" often enough. Shall we "change" all these to read "surely" as well?
Mt 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly <surely>, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mt 28:7 And go quickly <surely>, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
Mt 28:8 And they departed quickly <surely> from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mr 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly <surely> speak evil of me.
Mr 16:8 And they went out quickly <surely>, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Joh 11:29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly <surely>, and came unto him.
Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly <surely>, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Re 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly <surely>, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Re 3:11 Behold, I come quickly <surely>: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Re 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly <surely>.
Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly <surely>: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly <surely>; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly <surely>. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Then we have the similar word "tachion" meaning "more quickly." Shall we "change" all these also?
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly <surely>.
Joh 20:4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun <surely> Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
1Ti 3:14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly <surely>:
Heb 13:19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner <surely>.
Heb 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly <surely>, I will see you.
No, this problem has nothing to do with the KJV of the Bible or a translation problem. The word is correctly translated "shortly." If anyone "changed" it, it was Swedenborg in his own mind--but my Greek Bible still reads "tachos"--meaning "quickly."
How much of the Bible shall we alter to get what we want out of it, to condemn Rome in this case?
Boullan |
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SpiritualSon
USA
180 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 07:45:41 AM
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It is not for us know when God should act or pick out a person to do something for Him. It is God who chooses a century, because He knows each person before they are born. The word "shorely" in Revelation could mean any century. Since Swedenborg was born 1688-1772, it was in the 18th century he was chosen. God knew centuries before hand,that a monk name Martin Luther would divided faith from good works. Luther was warn by an angel not to divided good works of charity from faith, but he pay no mind to the angel, and allowed his false doctrine to be taught for centuries.
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Jesus Christ was the Rock, not Peter.
