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thebradish
USA
14 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 02:59:01 AM
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I've always known that my brother was gay. I can remember when i was in preschool(he's a couple of years older) and I could sense he was a little different in some way from many of the others. He recently came out of the closet and I'm happy that he was strong enough to come out. My parents are the type to try and look as christian as they possibly can, even if they aren't what they seem...this isn't good for my bro. They have ostracized him but I talk to him all the time and so does my other siblings. In my parents fleeting attempts to set him aside, they have set themselves aside. I know what the Bible says about homosexuality, and without getting into details about every little thing, I would like to say that I'm a "moderate" christian. For example, the Bible says not to touch the skin of a dead pig...but I don't go around saying that football players are going to hell. My brother is what he is, no matter how much I pray for it all to be different. God has given me a gay brother and I'm happy that he is now truely happy himself. I guess I don't have a real point to this...just gabbing. Thoughts? Comments?
Frank |
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SwedishChef
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 11:28:57 PM
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Moderate Christian or not, I wouldn't be happy with anyone living in rebellion with God.
In Christ,
Scott
Wise men still seek Him. |
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sanya
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2004 : 10:26:25 AM
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| God does not make mistakes when he creates another human being. No one is born gay, they choose who they are. If your brother thinks he is gay, he might want to try listening to some powerful testimonies from Christians that have that lifestyle in their past. God did not create man to be with man...ever. Our society is so distorted that it thinks that maybe God did. He did not, there is no mention of his creation of an "oops" thing in the Bible and that is God's word. I'll pray for you and your family. |
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aiki
Canada
594 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2004 : 1:58:31 PM
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thebradish:
You only try once in your post to rationalize your brother's sexual perversion from the Bible. YOu wrote:
quote:
I would like to say that I'm a "moderate" christian. For example, the Bible says not to touch the skin of a dead pig...but I don't go around saying that football players are going to hell.
So, why don't you go around saying that football players are going to Hell because they have touched the skin of a dead pig? Why do you think that this justifies your attitude toward your brother's sexual perversion?
IN Christ, Aiki.
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man comes to the Father but by me." Jn. 14:6 |
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LissyLong
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2004 : 1:03:19 PM
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Hi Frank
I am really happy for your brother. You are right about the dead pig thing. The Bible says to love all. Doesn't matter if they are straight or gay. All one can do for someone who is gay is love them and welcome them. It is a choice they may or may not have made. I don't know. I took Psyc in college and they said that it just happens. While the Bible says God doesn't make them. I really get confused. But great for him, and shame on your parents. I pray that they realize was they are doing and go on loving him and accepting him no matter what.
Lissy |
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DonKey
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2004 : 12:13:29 PM
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Dear Frank:
Thanks for your courage in telling your story on this forum. Your citation of the "pig" commandment is a hoot! For myself, a straight Christian of 60 years and happily married for 52, I often ask those who throw Scripture at homosexuals, how they handle Jesus' 11 condemnations of remarriage after divorce. To simply mouth, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it," isirresponsible and unloving. No one in their right mind today would take that position regarding Deuteronomy 22: 13-21. Paul admonished, "Study to show theyself approved unto God, a worker that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15). We all divide the word of truth. We don't keep kosher or practice circumcision. To simply grab passages indiscriminately without consideration of their "global" or "local" intent, is not to divide the Word rightly. |
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wmac
USA
1702 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 9:43:54 PM
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how can a kid in preschool be in rebellion by choosing to "be gay"
are those born with male external appearance and female genitalia in rebellion with God?
what about those with no genitalia?
"I don't even know whether we have sufficient evidence to know what or whether we know, nor what would count as knowing." |
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thebradish
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 1:09:22 PM
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http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/10/13/homosexuality.study.reut/index.html
I think many of you would find this article to be very interesting. It's about a study and a "possible" genetic link between gay men and their mothers. Personally, my uneducated belief is that there isn't one "gay gene." But I do think that their are some genetic tendencies that would favor a person to be homosexual...and if you have several of these traits...well than I guess you are either going to be a miserible straight guy or, at least at this point, an ashamed but fullfilled gay guy. There is going to be much more research on this, so a professor of mine says. There was a lull for several years on this subject but now with gay marriage a hot issue around the glode, everyone wants to know...are queers born this way?
"God does not make mistakes when he creates another human being"...what the hell are you talking about and what Bible are you reading??????? The Bible pounds home that everyone is not perfect. And yes I'm sure you can make a gay guy into a recovering homo just like a recovering alcoholic and that is if the person is willing to go along with that little bit of amateur psychology...but is the sanity of some christian extremists really worth the pain and suffering of so many gays?
I wasn't simply trying to justify my brother being who he is, or his "sexual perversion" as you so offensivly decided to put it, but cast doubt on how some christians interpret the Bible...DonKey makes a good point on this. Though I see you tried to shift the cloud of doubt from what I said, onto me...that works with politians but not in a forum such as this.
And I would also like to say that I hope that someone opens a class action lawsuit against some of these so called family groups that fund skewed research that makes homosexuals look like child molesters. If you all want to open that debate up I'll gladly go along...I have plenty to ***** about on that subject.
Did you all know that some "family groups" are resorting to internet terrorism against gay-friendly sites??? This isn't America. Crashing sites that are only trying to give support is not american or in the interest of ANY family! |
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SwedishChef
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 03:48:41 AM
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quote:
are those born with male external appearance and female genitalia in rebellion with God?
what about those with no genitalia?
I would have to say, no, simply being born with a defect does not mean one is born in rebellion against God. But simply presenting a few extreme examples does not negate responsibility for the 99.999% of people who are born with their sexual organs in check. Let God deal specially with extreme cases...lets not avoid responsibility for our own actions.
quote:
how can a kid in preschool be in rebellion by choosing to "be gay"
And how many preschoolers to you know who choose to be gay? Is a preschooler even adult enough to make such decisions? Don't you think these decisions are actually the result of a very troubled home-life?
Let's not play games here. Homosexuality is detestable. The Lord God says so.
In Christ,
Scott
Wise men still seek Him. |
Edited by - SwedishChef on 18 Oct 2004 5:24:17 PM |
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Chastity
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 11:42:28 PM
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In reference to people judging a homosexual
1. James 4:11-12 (Do not Judge a Brother)
Do not speak evil of one another, breathen. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother , speaks evil of the law and judges the loaw. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to juge another?
Explanation:
There is one lawgiver: The New Testament teaches us not to judge (see Matt. 7:1) For God is the ULTIMATE judge and the ONE who will take vengeance on those who practice evil. In other words No its not ok to be gay (or lie or steal or murder) but its also not ok to Judge another for there wrong doings. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ok about the touching dead pig skin
2.Unclean Animals
Leviticus 11:24
By these you shall become unclean; whoever toucher the carcass os any of them shall be unclean until evening; whoever carries part of the carcass of any of them shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening: The carcass of any animal which divides the foot, but is not cloven hoofed or does not chwe the cud, is unclean to you. Everyone who touches it shall be unclean. And whatever goes on its paws, amoong all kinds of animals that go on all fours, those are unclean to you. Whowver touches any such carcass shall be unclean until evening. Whoever carries any such carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean untill evening. It is unclean to you.
This scripture is Old Testament. God is commanding Moses to tell all his children not to eat or touch roadkill (if you will) because its probably rotten and gross. If you read on it will go into a whole list of things you shouldnt eat......Im pretty sure Footballs are made with imitaion leather, what with the animal activist and all.
After reading your post about not touching pig skin, Me and my husband both were looking up in the bible and strongs and anything eles we could get our hands on to find where Jesus made all meats clean. Would you know we cant find it. I did however find this site which is very informative for anybody who would like to read up on the subject. http://www.restoredcog.org/articles/aaagf.html
I hope you find it informative. I know I am not done reading learning about this.
The best thing I can say to you Frank is that its ok for you not to be ok with your brother being gay. It dosent mean you love him anyless. Its not ok for you, your parents or anybody eles to judge him for being gay,God still loves him more than ever. You are still judging if you say its ok to be homosexual. Sin is Sin and this dosent give you a free ticket to sin. Learn the scripture and you will walk with God and learn what is right and wrong. We have been studing the bible for a long time and still every time I sit down to read I learn something new.
"Draw near to God and he will draw near to you." James 4:8 |
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wmac
USA
1702 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2004 : 9:09:29 PM
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oh boy
one would think with so many biological and social experts here the world would be perfect by now
swedish
quote:
Let God deal specially with extreme cases.
i'd say less than 10% of a population is a specialty case, but instead i'll just say take your own advice
before you go off on a fundie rant, please learn your facts
Klinefelter's syndrome (XXY) -- male, usually has small testes; causes infertility; may be associated with learning defects or mental retardation; affects 1/500-1/1000 live male births)
source: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003269.htm
i'm not a math whiz, but 1 out of 500 males seems significant enough to be considered as something to consider
and that's just one type of biological, chromosomal, genetic disorder that should be addressed by people like you
out of the number of people registered on faithforum - a bit over 5000 - there is a statistically significant chance 100 people have klinefelter's
you may be one of them and don't know it - your comment seems to suggest to me you may be a candidate - which would mean God detests you for no fault of your own
quote:
how many preschoolers to you know who choose to be gay?
i don't know any preschoolers who choose to be gay, but i do know adults who have both chosen to be gay and not chosen
some males, during their preschool years, have expressed to me that they felt different by being attracted to boys and wanting to kiss them the same way girls do
is this from environment? possibly
is this from biology? possibly
quote:
these decisions are actually the result of a very troubled home-life?
do some research on the fundamental error of attribution and get back to me
until then, i'll write you off as a closed minded fundie with nothing but cliche's to back up a tired argument
"I don't even know whether we have sufficient evidence to know what or whether we know, nor what would count as knowing." |
Edited by - wmac on 23 Oct 2004 11:37:38 AM |
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thebradish
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2004 : 06:53:07 AM
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I'm sitting here with my mouth wide open in amazement. Everyone danced around the study that i posted and no one addressed the fundamental ideas that I've put forth. I know the debate about loose and strict interpretations of the Bible would go around and around endlessly but that is what all of this hinges on. And I would just like to say this talk about dead animals is ridiculous. I'm not demeaning Chastity's research, I'm talking about this outdated material in some parts of the Bible that too many people try to hang onto. And yes footballs aren't pigskin anymore because of the animal activists. LOL. In fact, I'm to stop beating around the bush. The Bible says that a man that sleeps with another man should be put to death. None of you will argue against that fact. So if you believe in a strick interpretation of the Bible than you want my brother put to death...yes? Correct me on this if I'm wrong because I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.
And Swedishchef...I know that you don't want to hear this but I've known my brother was gay since, well, his ENTIRE life. He was just one of those kids that you just knew. You'd see him and be like, "That is one gay kid." I remember when he was a toddler and i was a few years older, I knew at a basic level that he was gay. I didn't know what gay was but I knew he was gay. If you isolate bits of the Bible you can condemn homosexuality, in fact, you could even condemn my brother to death. But that's not my faith and I hope it isn't yours either. And I can't pinpoint any major probs in our childhood...so I don't know how his being gay is comp. for something. |
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Chastity
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2004 : 7:23:38 PM
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Hi All. Im going to make a long long post. I feel like I have alot to say about what everybody eles has said on the subject. Read it or dont read it. Agree with it or dont agree with it. "Free Will"
To DonKey-I completly agree with you about people throwing scripture around. It does bug me. If you notice from my posts I take everything from NKJV Nelsons Study Bible (which is my handbook for life, We pretty much take it everywhere with us.) I also dislike those sites that threaten and hate "in the name of God" homosexuals like the one God Hates Fags.Com. That really gets me upset, because God Does Not in anyway shape or form hate anybody. God hates Sin. Not the person doing the sin.
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
I honestly dont know what to say about the preschool thing. I dont believe a child has the mental capasity to even know what Gay means. Little children are curious with their bodies and the childrens bodies around them. Put yourself in a childs mind for a minute. As a little 3 or 4 year old child your thinking "hey people my size. Neat!!!! I can play with them. Note I didnt say girls and boys my size I said people because as a child you havent made that connection yet. Then as a child would start to think. "hey why does Sally have long hair. "Hey why does Billy have short hair. Hey why does Sally go to the pink bathroom and I always have to go to the Blue bathroom. Hey whay does Billy always get to go to the Blue Bathroom and I always go to the Pink Bathroom." Then the mind will get naturally Curious and thats when Parents get a note from the teacher saying Little Sally was trying to look at the boys in the bathroom. Or Little Billy was trying to lift the girls skirts. Kids are naturally curious about what makes them different. That also explains why little boys will look at other little boys and little girls will look at other little girls. They dont know anybetter. Its just how they learn gender. It has nothing to do with Sex or sexual contact or sexual interest. Children are innocent. Which leads me to the next thing on my list.
quote:
It's about a study and a "possible" genetic link between gay men and their mothers
God does not make mistakes when he creates another human being"...what the hell are you talking about and what Bible are you reading??????? The Bible pounds home that everyone is not perfect
I would like to first of all say GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES
No human being is a mistake. My cousin was born with spinabifida (she is paralized from the waist down, is in a wheelchair and should have died 18 years ago.) She is not a mistake from God. Nor is a blind person, a deaf person, a mute person, a person with down syndrom or any other person born with a birth defect. The Definiton of Birth Defect is as follows "a physical or biochemical defect that is present at birth and may be inherited or environmentally induced"
Now stay with me for minute cause Iam about to jump into scripture.
Lets go to Leiticus!!!
Leviticus 18 LAWS OF SEXUAL MORALITY
Lev 18:1-2 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying "Speak to the children of Isreal, and say to them: "I am the Lord your God."
Expanation:
This is God speaking, you cant mess that up, These are our Lords words.
Lev 18:4-5 You shall observe My judgements and keep My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God. You shall there fore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.
Expanation:
These are decress, laws, and acts of a PERMANENT nature. Judgements refers to judicial decisions involving situations that might not be addressed in the statutes. Through the ordinances and the judgements of God. So now we know what is to follow in the next lines of the scripture are BIG NO NOs. And They are as follows
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach anyone who is near of kin to him.
No having Sex with family members
Lev 18:19 Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness as long as she is in her customary impurity.
No haveing sex with a women when she is on her period
Lev 18:20 Moreovery ou shall not lie carnally with your neighbors wife to defile yourself with her.
No adultery
Here is the one we have been waiting for
Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
No being Gay. It is an abomination, cant get any clearer than that. Homosexuality here is labeled an abomination, something detesable to God both ritually and morally.
Lev 18:23 Nor should you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.
I dont really need to explain this one.[xx(]
And the chapter is summed up with....
Lev 18:24-'Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 'Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the Lord your God.'"
Notice how many times in Leviticus Chapter 18 Our Says I am the Lord your God. He is telling you he is all Divine. He is telling he dosent make mistakes He is telling you these are HIS words DO NOT DO THESE THINGS
Just had to add that in before I continue with my BIG point.
When somebody tells me they dont think it is a Sin to be gay, I think about Leviticus chapter 18 and I tell them to read it. I also tell them to read the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then I think (to myself) If they think its ok to be gay then they think sleeping with brothers and sisters is ok and sleeping with married men or married women is ok or sleeping with animals is ok.
When somebody tells me they think Genetics is why people are gay and its not the gay persons fault God made them that way. I tell them to read Leviticus chapter 18 and to read the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So Now I ask you this. If God is all powerful. The Divine Being. The creator of all things. The Most powerful. Most magnificent Most wonderful being in all the universe. How can he say something is a Sin then turn around and make somebody be born gay then condeme that person for it. Well He Dosent. Being Gay has nothing to do with Genetics. That is just like saying somebody is Sinning if there Genetic makeup makes them Blind or crippled or born with Down syndrom.
Mark 4:23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.
Ok well sorry for just rattling on. I just really feel stongly on the subject. I hope this helps some of you. I am open for opinions on this. But I dont think you can argue with Scripture.
I love you all always and hope good for all of you.
"Draw near to God and he will draw near to you." James 4:8 |
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skatergirl
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2004 : 4:30:48 PM
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| No matter if there is a "gay gene" or not, it's wrong. But it's possible to change. Thousands of people have. I don't HATE gay people, 1. Because your supossed to love the sinner, hate the sin, and 2. Because I'm struggling with homosexuality myself, and it's a horrible battle. It's very confusing. Just love your brother and tell him it's wrong, but tell him he can change, he just has to look to Jesus. |
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OverRunWithSons
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 9:14:58 PM
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| I am a Christian and as Conservative as they come, but I have to say that many things appear black & white in the Bible & we so quickly get to quoting , without really listening and ultimately hurting other people who are just trying to share & learn & even seek wisdom in very trying situations--that most of us will not have to experience ourselves, thankfully. What do we say to the children who are Born with an Undertermined Sex (Amaphridites?-probably spelled wrong) that the Doctor needs to FIX - or should they be fixed? Why do these things happen?? and what do we say to these parents? If this child grows up confused about his/her sex, how do us Christians answer this dilemma? I know it's Rare, but I can't jump to the concusion that -- that everything is Black & white. Sometimes it seems God DOES make mistakes. He allows many many things to happen that are devestating in new born children. Surely their is GRACE in these situations that I refer too. I KNOW what the word of God says about men lusting after Men, and turning the natural to the Unnature. I want to believe it is a Choice, that is only what makes sense to our rational minds, but ultimately we need to love these people who are confused (& pray for them)--and for ourselves to understand why they struggle with this, some may truly want to please their Creator, and pray that becomes their focus as well as our own. This is one area --I really wouldn't know how to handle if one of my children came to me with this Problem. How do you love but also reject the lifestyle?, I do NOT have the answers to this! |
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Notlimah
44 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 11:15:06 PM
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That's a step in the right direction for your brother.
If he's gay, he's gay. Some people at this forum seem rather clueless and brainwashed. You see thebradish, when they hear "gay", a sensor goes off in their head "Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!" It's like they're robots.
If you've always known he's gay, do you honestly think he was "rebelling against God" at age 8? What about 9? 10? I don't think temptation or rebelling has anything to do with it.
Can you imagine how hard it will be for him if he was reading what everyone here is saying? How would you feel?
You seem like a strong, reasonable person that goes by family instead of a book. If you're hating the way your brother is (love the sinner, hate the sin), then what about your brother are you loving.
I can only suggest staying with your positive attitude. Almost every post between yours and mine is negative and one-sided. Love, accept and support your brother. Doesn't that sound better than "he's an abomination in God' eyes"?
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My gay brother...
