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Geddy
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2004 : 11:06:25 AM
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Who believes we are going to be "caught up" into the cumulous clouds and ruin the crease in our new white robes while dodging Lear Jets and 747's?
I do not...I believe we can be caught up in the cloud of the infinite and immortal presence of Jesus here on Earth as we spend time sowing to the spirit = putting on the new man, - etcetera.
It's time that we "spiritualize" the Bible instead of carnalizing it don't ya think?... The Bible is a spirtual book inspired by the Holy Spirit for out Spiritual Growth in all wisdom and spirtual understanding.
Throw off those chains of reason, and your prison disappears... |
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SwedishChef
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 5:04:26 PM
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Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I suppose, too, that this is speaking about us seeing Jesus through the eyes of faith, as He descends into our hearts? There is such thing as over-spiritualizing the Scriptures.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Clearly Paul is speaking about the resurrection of the just. To interpret this as figurative depraves it of its obvious meaning. This is not “carnalizing” the Scriptures. This is what the Scriptures teach.
Do you believe in the resurrection of the just and unjust as foretold by Jesus and the prophets?
In Christ,
Scott
Wise men still seek Him. |
Edited by - SwedishChef on 04 Jun 2004 6:41:30 PM |
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TSOG
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 12:36:15 AM
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Geddy,
I understand your desire to "spiritulize" vs "caranlize". There is another way to think about the Bible that renders the argument moot. I thought you might be interested.
We won't know if we will be caught up in a literal cloud until we are dead. We can debate it forever, but we will never know. So,instead of looking to the Bible to tell you about the resurrection, creation, evolution, the rapture etc. think about it for what it said about the God who had those words put there.
Whether it is a real cloud or not, God wanted us to be encouraged and to have hope that the end of the life of Christians will be glorious beyond human understanding. Consider that the creator of the duckbilled platypus has put all these things in the Bible just to give us hope. Once you look at it that way, does it really matter if we understand the details of the end of the world? However, God does it, I just want to be a part of it.
The Bible is a window into the mind of God. He said in Hebrews that the characteristic of Christians (as opposed to Israelites) is that they will not teach each other to know the Lord because they will all know him from the least to the greatest. The Bible isn't there to explain the mysteries of the universe to us, its there so we can get to know God.
We read the Bible and see into God's mind a little bit. Then, we know him better than we did yesterday. We can evaluate events in our life a little better through knowing him. Then, we read the Bible again, and something that did not make sense yesterday makes sense today because of God has increased our faith through the Bible, Prayer and experience. Its a kind of wonderous cycle.
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sagacity
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 09:51:00 AM
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 GREETINGS GIDDY
Here is support for your belief, it will be found at TRUMPTS/RES******** POSTED by me. We have already been changed and are set apart for the Holy Spirit to quicken our mortal bodys that we my manifest JESUS unto all of creation.
Rev.19:10
true spirit of prophecy |
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sagacity
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 09:57:24 AM
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 GREETINGS ALL
This tells the true story of Carnal v.s. Spirit and the end result of ALL the Father has done to bring salvation unto ALL.
Romans 5:12-20 JBV
12 Well then, sin entered the world through one man, and through sin death, and thus death has spread through the whole human race because everyone in Adam has sinned.
13 Sin existed in the world long before the Law was given. There was no law and so no one could be accused of the sin of law- breaking, yet death reigned
14 over all from Adam to Moses, even though their sin, unlike that of Adam, was not a matter of breaking a law. Adam prefigured the One to come, but the gift itsself considerably outweighed
15 the fall. If it is certain that through one man’s fall so all died, it is even more certain that divine grace, coming through the one man, Jesus Christ, came to so all as an abundant free gift. The results of the gift also outweigh the results of
16 one man’s sin; for after one single fall came judgement with a verdict of condemnation, now after many falls comes grace with its verdict of acquittal.
17 If it is certain that death reigned over everyone as the consequence of one man’s fall, it is even more certain that one man, Jesus Christ, will cause everyone to reign in life who receives the free gift that he does not deserve, of being made righteous.
18 Again, as one man’s fall brought condemnation on everyone, so the good act of one man brings everyone life and makes them justified.
19 As by one man’s disobedience all were made sinner, so by one man’s obedience all will be made righteous.
20 When law came, it was to multiply the opportunities of falling, however great the number of sins committed, grace was even greater;
21 and so, just as sin reigned wherever there was death, so grace will reign to bring eternal life thanks to the righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:45-5 ESV
45 Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But is is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man if from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood connot inherit the kingdom of God, not does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Rev.19:10
true spirit of prophecy |
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allglo2004
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 09:26:49 AM
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Hello TSOG,
It is a blessing to hear WISDOM every once in a while, and today, I thank you for taking the time to share your SPIRITUAL WORDS with us here at the Faithforum. I hope our brothers and sisters are taking note.
We may not always agree, but there are some things you just cannot deny (when you are in the spirit). That is why I can recognize your words as being spiritual. I hear words of TRUTH, and my spirit quickens.
Allan
MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL.quote:
Originally posted by TSOG
Geddy,
I understand your desire to "spiritulize" vs "caranlize". There is another way to think about the Bible that renders the argument moot. I thought you might be interested.
We won't know if we will be caught up in a literal cloud until we are dead. We can debate it forever, but we will never know. So,instead of looking to the Bible to tell you about the resurrection, creation, evolution, the rapture etc. think about it for what it said about the God who had those words put there.
Whether it is a real cloud or not, God wanted us to be encouraged and to have hope that the end of the life of Christians will be glorious beyond human understanding. Consider that the creator of the duckbilled platypus has put all these things in the Bible just to give us hope. Once you look at it that way, does it really matter if we understand the details of the end of the world? However, God does it, I just want to be a part of it.
The Bible is a window into the mind of God. He said in Hebrews that the characteristic of Christians (as opposed to Israelites) is that they will not teach each other to know the Lord because they will all know him from the least to the greatest. The Bible isn't there to explain the mysteries of the universe to us, its there so we can get to know God.
We read the Bible and see into God's mind a little bit. Then, we know him better than we did yesterday. We can evaluate events in our life a little better through knowing him. Then, we read the Bible again, and something that did not make sense yesterday makes sense today because of God has increased our faith through the Bible, Prayer and experience. Its a kind of wonderous cycle.
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Kerath
85 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 8:16:36 PM
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I think you guys could use better wording. You should be referring to literalizing Scripture rather than "carnalizing". "Carnalizing" sounds more to me as making something manifest, or turning thought to deed. That's just a thought.
Anyway, I don't see any argument here. (Pointless topic to me who love argument.) Oh well, I guess I'll leave. |
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Travis
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 8:32:38 PM
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Well, I am new to this site. Sent my 2 cents worth on the last post, which was nothing. I'll catch on to the mechanics.
I believe there won't be a rapture as is commonly thought or taught.
Stay with me a moment, and I am still studying this some.
Remember this parable, The kingdom of heaven of is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in the fiedl:......let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, GATHER YE TOGETHER FIRST THE TARES, and bind them into bundles to BURN THEM: but gather the wheat into my barn Matt 13:24-30
AND: as it were in the days of Noah.... NOAH WAS LEFT, ALL THE OTHERS DIED. Then we have a new heaven and a new earth?? Who's gonna take care of this?? Just some thoughts. Still looking.
TRAC |
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SwedishChef
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 12:32:06 AM
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Greetings Travis,
quote:
I believe there won't be a rapture as is commonly thought or taught.
You mean a "pre-trib" rapture? Don't worry, I don't buy into that either.
In Christ,
Scott
Wise men still seek Him. |
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allglo2004
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 12:37:44 PM
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Hello Trac,
Welcome to Faithforum. I am delighted in finding out that I am not the only bloke who takes the Parables of Jesus Christ seriously. You quoted my favorite parable ( next to the Parable of the Vineyard), where I believe Jesus Christ painted for us a clear picture of things to come.
I have heard Preachers and Teachers of the Bible go on and on about the rapture, and my spirit keeps telling me, "Those guys don't know what the hell they are talking about!" I heard one talk about at least three (3) raptures. GIVE ME A BREAK!! These modern-day Scribes tell us that Christ will come, take us (Christians) to heaven, and then come back to judge the world. But did Jesus Christ say that? Not in my Bible.
This topic reveals to me the stupidity of man with their vain imaginations.
First of all, WHO SAID WE ARE GOING TO HEAVEN WHEN CHRIST RETURNS? NOT THE BIBLE.
Secondly, DO WE GO TO HEAVEN BEFORE WE ARE JUDGED, OR AFTER?
Thirdly, ARE WE WARNED BY CHRIST TO WATCH FOR HIS COMING, OR FOR SOME RAPTURE? and
Fourthly, DID CHRIST NOT SAY HE WILL RETURN TO JUDGE MANKIND?
AND PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME ABOUT US 'BEING CAUGHT UP IN THE AIR" BECAUSE THAT DOES NOT TELL ME ANYTHING. THANK YOU.
Allan |
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Teke
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2004 : 08:56:10 AM
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Hi all. I'm new, thought I'd just jump right in.
I do not like that word "rapture". To me this is a conjuring word. It means many different things to many different people.
Now if we are talking about Harvest or the Gathering, then that is more appropriate as biblical terms go. The word "rapture" is not even in the bible.
My view from study in the scriptures, is that all these prophecies of 7yr trib and believers being taken before that, is bologna.
There will surely be a gathering, and there will surely be a resurrection of our new bodies to our spirits and souls. Meantime they must wait in the place He has prepared for them.
Ezekials vision of the valley of dry bones is to remind us of what is possible. Timothy warned about spiritualizing the resurrection. Because although a resurrection of souls has occurred, as when Jesus rose, THE resurrection has not. Body and soul must be joined to be one, as is all other things in scripture. Everything must become one with God inevitably.
Here is Timothys warning.
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. |
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SwedishChef
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 4:47:02 PM
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Allglo,
You don't have to shout, we're all right here .
In Christ,
Scott
Wise men still seek Him. |
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Kerath
85 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 9:25:38 PM
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This feels like one of those plain feel-good topics, where you don't discuss anything but post whatever you feel at the time! I feel like telling everyone how cool it is to know what the old doctrines were about the chapter on the 1000-year earthly reign! No one teaches the old doctrines anymore. Apparently, the earthly reign is now, the kingdom is the Church, the 1000 years is just a long time, and the devil's powers are technically somewhat bound, because of the introduction of salvation. In that case, I wonder how bad the tribulation can be. The only real "foreign" idea to me is the unbounding of Satan's power. I suppose lots of plague as there was in the Old Testament. In any case, very interesting...
OCCC
"Don't argue with me. Argue with history." -Michelle Jewell (sp?) |
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SwedishChef
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2004 : 4:14:03 PM
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quote:
Apparently, the earthly reign is now, the kingdom is the Church
Indeed the kingdom of God exists now. Paul says we have been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son. John the Baptist and Jesus both proclaimed the Kingdom of God was at hand.
Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you, and that "my kingdom is not of this world." Jesus reigns right now in the throne of power and glory, and we are right now seated in heavenly places with Him. The author of Hebrews says we ARE come to the heavenly Jerusalem.
These indeed are good old doctrines -- taught by the Apostles themselves.
In Christ,
Scott
Wise men still seek Him. |
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sagacity
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2004 : 6:28:34 PM
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GREETINGS TEKE: 2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 We are living in the ressurection NOW, for today is the day of salvation and NOW is the time...you see the poor in spirit are given the kingdom of heaven NOW not in some future rapture 
Rev.19:10
true spirit of prophecy |
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Adam1
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 8:52:43 PM
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According to Emanuel Swedenborg we die as a physical body, but we will be raised as substantial bodies. That is, the divine substance buried underneath our sinful carnal natures will be revealed in the resurrection. Our bodies will be our bodies, but purified of mortal corruption. What's the line about our corruption then putting on incorruption?
aswinford-wasem@msn.com |
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The Rapture: Spiritual or Unspiritual
