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great grace
USA
54 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jan 2004 : 1:06:01 PM
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quote:
Tuesday, January 13, 2004
Subject: Sola Scriptura
Thanks for sending "Sola Scriptura" to me. I appreciate what you had to say. Just yesterday, a friend and I were discussing how dispensational theology has done a disservice to the church by convincing people that certain facets of church life only existed during the apostolic period.
Marv Knox Editor
Baptist Standard
marvknox@baptiststandard.com
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. John 21:25
Although God’s word has never stated that the place and position in the church of Jesus Christ today of Apostles, prophets and gifts of the Spirit, including miracles, healing and tongues, has ceased because the church has not ceased, fallible false men have dispensed with such things. Then these same fallible men or church fathers (The Romans Church sees the Fathers as the successors of the apostles, the closest source to the apostolic teaching and tradition, and therefore authoritative) canonized the scriptures and they became what we know as the bible. (Mind you the Protestant Bible has fewer books than the Catholic Bible.)
For some Christians the Church Fathers are a wonderful source of rich and rewarding material. But they cannot be read uncritically. It is obvious from the New Testament that doctrinal confusion, legalism, sacerdotalism, and gnostic error found their way into the church even before the canon was closed. The writings of the Church Fathers were not free from such influences. Moreover, the next three centuries after the original apostles died there were a long chronicle of doctrinal conflict, and these men whom we call Church Fathers did not always agree with one another. Yet these men canonized the infallible scriptures and we can trust them with our lives? (Mind you while Jesus taught us to trust the Old Testament Scriptures and the person of the Holy Spirit, He never told us to trust the New Testament or that He would cause one to be written?)
Sola Scriptura is Latin for "Scripture alone" or "only Scripture."
The doctrine carries with it approximately two connotations. First, by way imposing the least controversial feature, it is that the Bible is materially sufficient (totum in Scriptura) for guiding all matters of doctrine and religious practice. The doctrine of sola Scriptura suggests that the Scriptures are formally sufficient. The Bible serves as the (i) exclusive source of infallible doctrinal material, and (ii) the sufficient source of infallible doctrinal material. At this point it is incumbent upon me to qualify this definition so that no misunderstanding will result. Sola Scriptura is temporally contingent in that it is a post-Apostolic doctrine following the era of inscripturation. (3)
The Bible affirms that Scripture is the sufficient and exclusive source of infallible doctrinal material.
(a) In the much celebrated passage in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 we find the Apostle Paul's dynamic words to Timothy about the nature of written revelation:
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (NIV).
Catholics and Protestants all agree that the Scriptures are theopneustos or "God-breathed." This gives divine significance to the Apostolic message. But there are two extremes about Scriptures in Christianity. The Protestant Church today is a book-worshipper. It makes a fetish out of a book. The Catholics are little for the Bible, and ever have. They say, "Take away the whole book if you like, and the church will still remain in all its power. The book is the creation of the church, not the church the creation of the book." The Protestants, finding themselves confronted with an infallible church, had to oppose it with an infallible book. And they made a book infallible, which before had not been considered so. And well they might for they were compelled to. It is commonly the case that the overthrow of one superstition is only accomplished by the establishment of another in its place.
The Catholics had the prestige of antiquity, and of being considered the only true Church of God, and they threatened with eternal damnation every man who followed Luther. The masses of the people of the North, ignorant and superstitious, were naturally terrified by the awful threat, and the only wonder is that they ever challenged this religious juggernaut. To meet the challenge, Luther, Calvin, and others said that the Bible was "supernaturally inspired." The origin of the books having been forgotten, men, credulous and in trouble, came to think that because the books were written of God they were written by God. The reformers declared that the Bible and not the church was the sole source of authority. This succeeded, and the decrees of the Vatican were answered by such reasoning by the Protestants. The doctrine of the divine and infallible inspiration of the New Testament spread as did the military advances through Europe. Hence we had the following ridiculous decree, adopted by the Calvinistic council of Switzerland in 1675 A. D.:
"Almighty God not only provided that His word, which is the power of every one who believes, should be committed to writing through Moses, the Prophets, and Apostles, but also has watched over it with a fatherly care up to the present time, and guarded it lest it might be corrupted by the craft of Satan or any fraud of men...The Hebrew volume of the Old Testament, which we have received from tradition of the Jewish church, to which formerly the oracles of God were committed, and retain at the present day, both in its contents and in its vowels, the points themselves, or at least the force of the points, and both in its substance and its words is divinely inspired, so that, together with the volume of the New Testament, is the single and uncorrupted rule of our faith and life, by whose standard, as by a touchstone, all versions which exist, whether Eastern or Western, must be tried, and whenever they vary, be made conformable to it" (Neimeyer, Collection Confessionum, p. 730).
But nothing could be further from the truth for we have three things indicate the grim ferocity of this dogma:
1. It says the God has guarded the Bible from corruption; yet Griesbach collected one hundred and fifty thousand various readings in the New Testament manuscripts alone (B. A. Hinsdale, M.A., Genuineness and Authenticity of the Gospels, Cincinnati, 1872 ,p. 130), the greater part of which must, of course, be corruptions, since there can be but one correct reading for any passage.
2. It says the vowels were inspired, whereas the ancient Hebrew literature had no vowels.
3. It says that the vowel-points were inspired; whereas they did not come into use until the seventh century after Jesus, and were not perfected until four centuries later. This last article is a relic of that ancient belief that the translators, the copyists, and all the men who had aught to do with the transmission of the Bible from century to century, were inspired.
One of the main problems with man is that he does not read nor know the Word of God. Then when he does read it, he does not allow the Holy Spirit to teach and show them the true meaning and truths in the word of God. Rather he leans to the presumed half truths that others have taught him and which do not work any way when tested in the fires of life. Only the Holy Spirit who is the author, inspirer and interpreter of the Word of God is the one who is capable for revealing truth and its true meaning. With out the Holy Spirit insights it’s not only a waste of time to interpret the word but extremely dangerous. For as any good navigator knows off reading charts, an inch off on the chart could have disastrous results and end up being miles off. Jesus clearly stated that He would send the Spirit of truth to His own:
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever- "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:15-21
For those who truly love Jesus and keep His words and commandments, the Father would give another Helper the Spirit of truth who will abide with them for ever and He will love them. For those who would abide in Him, Jesus would also love them and manifest Himself to them and by the Holy Spirit He will talk to them and tell them of things to come. God’s word records:
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. John 16;13-15
The Holy Spirit would make the Word of God real to God’s people so that what Jesus said would be true:
But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' Matthew 4:4
Man is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and made real by the Holy Spirit. It must be a Rhema word and not just a logos word. So that the Word of God will be fulfilled:
"Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the LORD your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. "And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the LORD your God:
"Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country. "Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. "Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. "Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.
"The LORD will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. "The LORD will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
"The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the LORD your God and walk in His ways. "Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they shall be afraid of you. Deuteronomy 28:1-10
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Edited by - great grace on 13 Jan 2004 10:00:32 AM
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aiki
Canada
594 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2004 : 1:52:44 PM
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Hello.
Your "tidal wave" approach to sharing your ideas makes responses difficult. Is your intent to provoke dialogue or prevent it?
In Christ, Aiki.
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man comes to the Father but by me." Jn. 14:6 |
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Eregil
USA
517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2004 : 5:35:05 PM
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I'm with aiki on this one. You provide a lot of information but don't indicate where you want the discussion to go.
Good enough for government work! |
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great grace
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 03:54:43 AM
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Here is something you can handle about sola scriptura?
In that last three hundred years denominationalists have made Paul's epistles to be at the same level or above the words and teachings of Jesus in the gospel. Paul's epistles were written for a specific date and time and are not general epistles with general applications as applied by man. God has others writing specific epistles for today's generation. It is a fact that many of today’s Fundamentalists and Conservative Baptists know more about Paul's teaching than the teaching of Jesus ignoring some very important verses in the gospels:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. Matthew 5:3-6
Being poor in spirit means lacking the Holy Spirit and without being filled with the Spirit no one shall have the kingdom of heaven. And that is why Jesus stated:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19
It's a fact that many Fundamentalists and Conservative Baptist use the canonization of scripture to deny the Baptism of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit based on:
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it ill vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 1 Corinthians 13:8
The PERFECT being in their carnal thinking the bible. How foolish can you be and still breathe and deny what God has never denied but rather confirmed?
Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-28
When the church of Jesus Christ ceases on earth then Apostles, prophets and gifts of the Spirit will have ceased and Jesus Christ would have returned!
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Shaun
USA
1064 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 04:28:54 AM
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quote:
It is a fact that many of today’s Fundamentalists and Conservative Baptists know more about Paul's teaching than the teaching of Jesus ignoring some very important verses in the gospels:
That's not a fact. That's a stereotypical opinion you read somewhere.
quote:
Being poor in spirit means lacking the Holy Spirit and without being filled with the Spirit no one shall have the kingdom of heaven. And that is why Jesus stated:
Uhm, you just quoted your own refutation:
Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That completely refutes your comment about "being poor in spirit means lacking the Holy Spirit." No, it doesn't. "spirit," in this context, is different than "Spirit." This verse is contrasting the "spirit" of the proud and self-sufficient religious people. One who lacks "spirit" and instead has "Spirit," is blessed.
quote:
It's a fact that many Fundamentalists and Conservative Baptist use the canonization of scripture to deny the Baptism of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit based on:
No one here denies the Baptism of the Spirit. However, there are differing opinions on what that entails. What are you trying to prove with this 1 Cor 13 Scripture quote?
quote:
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it ill vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 1 Corinthians 13:8
The PERFECT being in their carnal thinking the bible. How foolish can you be and still breathe and deny what God has never denied but rather confirmed?
Not many people think "perfect" is referring to the Bible. Most attribute it to the Second Coming and Resurrection. I find that a good explanation, and I also like another interpretation that the perfect refers to the love of the Lord applied in our lives:
1 John 4:12: "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
and how as a believer matures and grows in their faith (as a child, put away childish things), then does not need the sign gifts as he or she did when they first believed. I need less of miracles, prophecy and supernatural events to convince me of Christ's power now (hence the gifts eventually ceasing), because I have grown into a more mature faith, relying on hope and performing in love. That is, in essence, a "more excellent way," which I believe all believers progress toward in their walk with the Lord.
None of this will be needed come Jesus's Coming reign, but I think Paul still describes a wonderful metaphor of the gifts in a believer's life.
by Grace,
Shaun |
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great grace
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 07:24:16 AM
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For the record, it is to be noted that the words of Jesus were authoritative in the Church from the first, and scanty attention is paid to the words or works of Jesus in the earliest Christian writings, Paul's letters, the later Epistles, Hebrews, Revelation, and even Acts have little to report about them. The New Testament, as we have it, is much more dominated by Paul. Although Jesus Christ is center of attention in the gospelsm Paul’s views and opinions about others dominate most of the epistles.
Its also unfortunate the Apostle Paul the great propagator of the Christian faith fails to pay more attention to the words of Jesus and their application in the church of Jesus Christ. As a result many Christian fundamentalists seem to worship and follow the words of Paul rather than Jesus Christ.
If blessed are the poor in spirit means anything other than the lack of the Holy spirit, then many people would inherit the kingdom of heaven without being born again and being baptized with the Spirit? Which is impossible because God's word state:
LK 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
JN 4:23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
JN 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
So which scripture verse states that Apostles and Prophets and the gifts of the Spirit have ceased today? None! So liars are still liars?
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Edited by - great grace on 03 Jan 2004 3:25:10 PM |
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Shaun
USA
1064 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 3:44:10 PM
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quote:
Its also unfortunate the Apostle Paul the great propagator of the Christian faith fails to pay more attention to the words of Jesus and their application in the church of Jesus Christ. As a result many Christian fundamentalists seem to worship and follow the words of Paul rather than Jesus Christ.
Actually, he does pay attention to the words quite well, but applies them into a more practical context for us. A ton of his stuff is based upon direct quotes from Christ and the OT.
quote:
If blessed are the poor in spirit means anything other than the lack of the Holy spirit, then many people would inherit the kingdom of heaven without being born again and being baptized with the Spirit? Which is impossible because God's word state:
LK 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Again, you completely miss the difference between spirit and Spirit. There's a reason one is capitalized in your Bible, and one is not. The spirit is your own personal spirit, while the Spirit is referring to the Holy Spirit. It is required to have the Spirit, but you can also be "poor in spirit" by allowing God to decrease your own spirit and fill it with His Spirit.
The Luke 3:16 quote is referring to the Holy Spirit, not your personal spirit.
quote:
JN 4:23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
JN 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
So which scripture verse states that Apostles and Prophets and the gifts of the Spirit have ceased today? None! So liars are still liars?
You are incredibly unclear on what it is you're trying to convey. If you're trying to argue against cessationism, then you won't find an arguement here--but I would suggest you find out the difference between spirit and Spirit before trying to go any further.
I stated my opinion on gifts--if you'd like to debate that, I can go further with that. If you're just here to be unclear and lash at cessationism, then I'd suggest finding another forum, because no one here will discuss with an unclear poster arguing at nobody.
by Grace,
Shaun |
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great grace
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 06:38:55 AM
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Capitalization is a King James invention!
MT 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MT 5:5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
Since everybody is poor in spirit therefore everybody is saved according to your interpretation? And who has inherited the earth? Not the meek?
The foolishness of your logic is based on the fact that you don't have the original manuscript of any of the gospels but only fourth generation copies which do have real errors in them including commas and captilization, and then you interpret things the way you want to interpret them by the flesh and not the spirit. However Jesus said :
MT 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.
THEY SHALL BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT? SO THOSE WHO ARE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND FIRE ARE BELIEVERS AND ARE THE SAVED ONES. AS A RESULT THEY DO WHAT JESUS TOLD THEM TO DO?
MT 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
MT 12:28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
MK 1:39 And He was preaching in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and casting out demons.
MK 16:17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
THE OTHERS EVEN IF THEY CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS ARE UNBELIEVERS!AND UNBELIEVERS GO TO HELL NOT HEAVEN!
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Shaun
USA
1064 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 08:19:05 AM
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Oh boy. The UPC and its offshoots strike again. Time to pull out the old threads. I shall refute this later, after a nap.
by Grace,
Shaun |
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Eregil
USA
517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 09:23:13 AM
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If there's one thing I haven't seen thrown at Shaun, it's the word "foolish."
UPC? What's that?
Good enough for government work! |
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Shaun
USA
1064 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 09:54:32 AM
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The UPC is the United Pentecostal Church, which believes that one must speak in tongues to be saved. Offshoots of them believe that one must be "baptized in the Holy Ghost" (in their interpretation, speaking in tongues), or one must practice exorcism, or that one must fulfill some other man-made requirement.
great grace, let's simplify this, rather than have me spend lengthy amounts of time on unnecessary refutations.
What are your requirements for salvation?
by Grace,
Shaun |
Edited by - Shaun on 05 Jan 2004 09:55:12 AM |
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great grace
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 11:17:36 AM
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Since Jesus Christ, not apostle Peter or Paul who is the author or founder of the Christian faith? So it is what He states about how to be saved is important? Unless you have a different bible or Jesus than I have, to be saved you must be a believer? And a believer does what Jesus told him to do including
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
16:17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
16:18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
OBVIOUSLY UNBELIEVERS DON'T BELIEVE THE WORDS OF JESUS AND DON'T DO WHAT HE HAS COMMANDED THEM TO DO? THEY ALSO ADD OR REMOVE THINGS FROM THE BIBLE!
And of course you don't discuss the fact that we don't have the original manuscripts of the New Testament because we are to trust the Holy Spirit and not men and their foolish interpretations or translations of the bible?
By the way speaking of salvation and how to be saved way are you a sheep or a goat?
25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
25:33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
25:36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
25:38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
25:39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
25:40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
25:43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
25:45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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Edited by - great grace on 05 Jan 2004 4:03:28 PM |
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Shaun
USA
1064 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 4:08:09 PM
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Great Grace:
Clarity, clarity, clarity! Please give me a straight answer and follow Matthew 5:37 for me!
Judging by your ambiguous statement, you require that all believers must do these to be saved:
1) Preach the gospel to every creature
2) Be baptized
3) Cast out demons
4) Speak in tongues
5) Take up serpents
6) Drink anything deadly
7) Lay hands on the sick
If this is not it, then clarify for me. Tell me exactly what your requirements for salvation are, and quit dancing around the issue by masking your own beliefs with supposed piety. I don't want Bible verses--I know them and have them right next to me, trust me. I want your beliefs, so that we can have a rational and productive discussion.
What are your requirements for salvation?
by Grace,
Shaun |
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great grace
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 5:32:31 PM
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Are you are foolish that you want me to define what salvation means when Jesus Christ already has done that? He has clearly stated:
16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
16:17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
16:18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
SIGNS AND WONDERS FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIEVE UNLESS YOU ARE CALLING JESUS CHRIST A LIAR AND A DECEIVER AND SAYING NONBELIEVERS ARE BELIVERS AND ARE SAVED?
I have noticed that you ask questions but don't answer questions?
So if you believe in “Divine plenary Verbal Inspiration” of scriptures. "Plenary" means full and complete, "ALL scripture" (2 Timothy 3:16). that is all scripture that can be called "scripture", critically careful to include minute details. "Verbal" means that the very words of the scripture were given to the writers, and not just the ideas they convey. The writers were not left to choose the words. At the same time God did not destroy or ignore their different personalities. The writings of Paul may differ in style from the writings of John or James. However the Almighty God who created the heavens and the earth with the words of his mouth gave his words through men, using their individual personalities and traits without changing the doctrine or the truth that these are the very words that proceedeth out of his mouth. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4) Then you must believe that "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly" means exactly as stated? And you must end up with the only conclusion that your logic and reason will lead you to accept the words of Jesus literally as written!
But if don't accept the "Verbal" inspiration of all scriptures that the very words of the scripture were given to the writers, and not just the ideas they convey, you can allow the Holy Spirit to interpret scriptures for you as Jesus meant them to be and not as men penned them?
And since we don't have the original manuscripts for the Gospel or the epistles you cannot make a solid doctrine about anything written in them? Did the words that Paul write proceed from God?
The problem with ‘Verbal Inspiration’ of scriptures is that it sounds wonderful in theory but in fact we do not have any original manuscripts to show what the very words of the scripture were given to the writers of the New Testament. We are told we have to accept all of this by faith? But the reality is that both the Greek and King James versions of the bible have words that mean different things to different folks, leaving only the Holy Spirit to convey to each person the ideas that He was conveying through the scriptures?
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Edited by - great grace on 05 Jan 2004 6:08:29 PM |
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Shaun
USA
1064 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 6:21:15 PM
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quote:
SIGNS AND WONDERS FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIEVE UNLESS YOU ARE CALLING JESUS CHRIST A LIAR AND A DECEIVER AND SAYING NONBELIEVERS ARE BELIVERS AND ARE SAVED?
I never said that. Please avoid Straw Man arguments.
As for Mark 16:9-20, quoted from a former poster in Challenge, an excellent exposition on it:
quote:
Now let's look at the verses that the Tongues=Salvation folks use to support their stance. The most prominent is Mark 16:9-20. However, this passage is quite questionable with the evidence pointing to the conclusion that verses 9-20 were not the original ending to Mark. This proves to be quite a shaky ground for the Tongues=Salvation folks to stake their claim on. The following is my post from another thread about the subject of Mark 16. I think an unbias reading of the evidence points to the very strong conclusion about those passages.
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Most scholars agree that there either was an ending to Mark after verse 8, that was later lost or destroyed, or there was intent to include ending but something happened that prevented it. (Like maybe Mark's death)
However, the verses that we know today as 9-20 are highly unlikely to have been part of the original.
Dr. Bruce Metzger, one of the world's foremost authority on Biblical manuscripts said in an interview ....
The earliest Greek, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, and Latin manuscripts end the Gospel of Mark at 16:8: "The women said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid." That does not sound like an appropriate ending for a book of good news, so some early scribes, undertaking their own research, added what they thought would be appropriate endings." (Christian History, 9/96.)
The Textual Evidence: Omissions of Verses after Mark 16:8
As Greg mentioned.
quote:
The last nine verses of Mark 16, are usually discredited by modern scholarship , because they are not found in the earliest two manuscripts existant, ie the Vaticanius and the Sinacticus, this is admitted by one and all.--Greg July 4th
Let's look at the weight of that testimony. The Vaticanius and the Sinacticus are the earliest manuscripts that we have. The Sinacticus also bears a complete copy of all the books and has shown to be of high integrity. While the earliest manuscript to include verses after Mark 16:8, Codex Alexandrinus (dated at 425 SD) is missing nearly all of Matthew up to verse 25:7, 2 Chapters of the Gospel of John and 8 chapters from II Corinthians!
Furthermore, the verses are not found in (according to Dr. Bruce Metzger
....the Old Latin codex Bobiensis (itk), the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, about one hundred Armenian manuscripts, and the two oldest Georgian manuscripts (written A.D. 897 and A.D. 913). Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. --Bruce Metzger "A Textual Commentary of Greek New Testament"
Textual Evidence: Dubious Inclusions of verses 9:20
Now Greg also has pointed out...
quote:
1. The vast majority of ancient texts do contain them.
In another thread Lelliot, I believe, pointed me to a website that contended that verses 9-20 was inspired. That site referenced probably the same texts that Greg is thinking of. Well I did a little research on them. (Which is why it took me some time to respond to Lelliot's question)
In several of the manuscripts that include verses 9-20 there are marginl notes stating that older Greek copies do not include the verses.In some the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli which, for those not familar with textual study, copyists would use those signs to indicate a suspectible addition to a document. These documents includes several uncial and cursive manuscripts as well as the Laurensis, Per****ta, Curetonian, Manuscript 274, Philexonian and Memphitic texts.
Textual Evidence: Alternate Endings in addition to Verse 9:20
Furthermore, many of the texts that have verses after Mark 16:8 do not have the verses 9-20 that most people think of. This gives high credence to the notion that any verse after 16:8 was doctored in some way.
One of the alternate endings is
"And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation."
That is found in four uncial Greek manuscripts (L Psi 099 0112), the Old Latin (k) texts, the Harelean Syriac, as well as several Sahidic and Bohairic Ethiopic manuscripts that are even older then several of the unical texts that have the verses 9-20 that are normally cited as textual evidence.
I hear that some of the NRSV also include a margin note about the Codex Washingtonensis from the late 4th century A.D. which includes Freer Logion on verse 14
Later he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were sit- ting at the table; and he upbraided them for their lack of faith and stubbornness, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. And they excused themselves, saying, "This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits. Therefore reveal your righteousness now"--thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, "The term of years of Satan's power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was handed over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more, that they may inherit the spiritual and imperishable glory of righteousness that is in heaven"
Church Father's Evidence
In addition to the manuscript evidence showing the dubious nature of the verses. Several Church fathers noted that additional endings of Mark existed and were floating around. Dr. Bruce Metzger mentioned Eusebuis who wrote in the 4th centuary Ad Marinum 1
"in the accurate manuscripts Mark ended with the words 'for they were afraid'[Mark 16:8].'"
Also in the fourth century St. Jerome included in his notes as he developed the Vulgate that most of the earliest and most reliable texts did not have additions after 16:8. Later, Christians theologians such as Hesychius of Jerusalem, Severus of Antioch and Theophylactus of Ochrida would comment on variant endings to Mark as suspected additions.
Now Greg said and Lelliot's website would concur
quote:
3. The disputed verses are quoted from by several pre-nicene fathers, whose writings are well over a hundred years older than the text of either of the two bibles listed above.---Greg July 4th
But......
Victor of Antioch who wrote the first commentary on the Gospel of Mark listed 16:8 as the ending. Several of the Early Church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD), Origen (185-254AD) and Tertullian (160-225AD) never quoted from those verses dispite EXTENSIVE writings on Baptism and could have found verse 16 quite useful.
Until the early part of the 4th centuary only Ireneaus in 180 AD made any refernce to the disputed verses.
The Internal Evidence
The inclusions of verse 9-20 simply do not fit Mark's writings style that he exhibited throughout the whole gospel. Mark's writing was very fast pace and terse, jumping from one thing to the next and rarely if every did he have a tidy ending to a narrative like verse 20 desires to do for the entire gospel.
Very compelling scholarship indicates that the scribes who added the additionals actually just used a sumamry from the three other gospel and Acts. One site I came across very neatly charted this out
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~pballard/mk16.html. It also includes a brief discussion on how charismatics use a faulty interpretation of the Greek in verse 17 to imply that all believers must speak in tongues and easily refutes that error. I think I may post that on another thread. 
The Greek in verses 9-20 also do not mention Mark's Greek. In fact the vocabulary of those verses is quite different from the rest of Mark's Gospel as well as most of the New Testament, giving large weight to the notion that these verses were NOT written in the 1st centuary.
In verse 9
When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons
We have prote sabbaton when elsewhere in the New Testament and EVEN just a few verses above we have tes mias ton sabbaton used.
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb (Mark 16:2, NIV emphasis added by me)
In verse 10
She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping
Here and only elsewhere in verses 11 and 20 do we see ekeinos used.
In verse 11
When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
We have theaomai used when Mark uses eido every where else for seen.
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead (Mark 9:9, NIV emphasis added by me)
Also in verse 11, we see apisteo "believe", which Mark does not use anywhere else.
In verse 17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
We see here and only here parakoloutheo which means most literally follow. Elsewhere in the New Testament and always in Mark you would see akoloutheo used.
They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Tweleve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. (Mark 10:32, NIV emphasis added by me)
and
Then he called the crowds to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." (Mark 8:34, NIV emphasis added by me)
In verse 20
Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Only here is pantachou used for 'every' and sunergeo for 'working with' (when sunergeo is not found elsewhere in the NT).
Furthermore, the phrases meta de tauta in verse 12 , husteron verse 14, ho men oun verse 19, and ekeinoi de in verse 20 are unique in their usage here.
On top of the different vocabulary and word usage, you look at verse 16:9 and they are introducing Mary Magdalen.
When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons
When Mark was just talking about her in the begining of Chapter 16. And the author of 9-20 is squeezing Luke 8:2 in here when it would have been better included that narrative in Chapter 4 when Jesus was in Capernaum
CONCLUSION
*The Textual Evidence that ends at Mark 16:8 are the oldest and most relaible texts.
*Several texts have variant ends after Mark 16:8 that do not coincide with verse 9-20
*The earliest text that include verse 9-20 have margin notes and asteriks added by the scribes to indicate that those verses are likely additions.
*The External Biblical Writings of the Early Church Fathers do not support verse 9-20
*The Internal Evidence of Greek usage and writing style does not coincide with the rest of Mark
Therefore, one can easily conclude that while most likely Mark did (or was intended to) have an ending, the verses commonly known as 9-20 were most definitely not it and likely were added to the text in the mid 2nd centuary by scribes wanting to give Mark an ending that summed up the rest of the resurection narratives..
Next points:
quote:
Posted by great grace:
Then you must believe that "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly" means exactly as stated?
Have you picked up a rattlesnake lately? Would you drink some arsenic for me? Otherwise, by your definition, how can I say you are a believer?
quote:
And you must end up with the only conclusion that your logic and reason will lead you to accept the words of Jesus literally as written!
No, you can also look at the narrative style and see if it is actually the words Jesus spoke.
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And since we don't have the original manuscripts for the Gospel or the epistles you cannot make a solid doctrine about anything written in them?
You can, but you first must find out which texts are most likely to be from the original manuscripts. Mark 16:9-20 was not. This is easily apparent.
quote:
Did the words that Paul write proceed from God?
2 Peter 3:15-16
This is just as our beloved brother Paul wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him--speaking of these things in his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters around to mean something quite different from what he meant, just as there do the other parts of Scripture--and the result is disaster for them.
Now Peter calls what Paul wrote Scripture. According to this verse, it is God-breathed:
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
quote:
But the reality is that both the Greek and King James versions of the bible have words that mean different things to different folks, leaving only the Holy Spirit to convey to each person the ideas that He was conveying through the scriptures?
Or we have people who haven't read enough, studied enough and looked at things enough in context--and are therefore, by definition, simply wrong in their interpretation. God gave us logic and a mind for a reason.
Again, you have failed to state what you believe. If you believe in the seven things I listed that you believe, then I seriously suggest reading Galatians, and understanding that "it is not by works that we are saved, lest we should boast."
by Grace,
Shaun |
Edited by - Shaun on 05 Jan 2004 6:23:52 PM |
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great grace
USA
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Posted - 05 Jan 2004 : 6:39:34 PM
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Hogwash! Why is the idiot quoting Greek? Jesus never said He would go away and send back pastors and preachers and the Greek version of the bible? No! Rather He said He would send back the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, who would lead us into all TRUTH (John 16:7-15,1 John 2:20,27).
The original gospels were not in Greek but in Aramaic. And Paul the chauvanist, who believed and stated that Peter was a hypocrite, that women are saved only by child bearing, and men, not women, must lift up holy hands to God, is dead and he is not the author, founder or sustainer of the Christian faith. If you want to quote something worthwhile quote the words of Jesus about salvation including:
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
15:3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
15:4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
THERE GOES OUT OF THE WINDOW THE DOCTRINE OF DEMONS OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED ESPOUSED BY THOSE WHO BELIVE IN THE GREEK VERSION OF THE BIBLE AS ESPOUSED BY PAUL RATHER THAN ABIDING IN JESUS CHRIST!
For the record, you failed to answer the questions again? You are wasting my time. Because if Mark 16 is not part of the bible then there is no such thing as "Divine plenary Verbal Inspiration” of scriptures. "Plenary" means full and complete, "ALL scripture" (2 Timothy 3:16). that is all scripture that can be called "scripture", critically careful to include minute details. "Verbal" means that the very words of the scripture were given to the writers, and not just the ideas they convey. The writers were not left to choose the words. SO ON THIS BASIS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS INPSIRED SCRIPTURE AS DEFINED BY ANY PROTESTANT EVANGELICAL.
And since we are going to reject Mark 16, 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 then we might as well reject the rest of the bible because we don't have the original manuscripts and the committee that canonized the bible were composed of Roman Catholics Church Fathers who believed in purgator and were divided amongst themselves on many issues.
But Apostle Paul inspired scriptures do command us:
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. 1 Corinthians 14:1-6
If Apostle Paul’s writing are God ordained scripture do you believe that what Apostle stated about marriage and women is directly inspired of God specifically:
7:1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
7:6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment.
7:7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am;1 Corinthians
SO WHAT FOOL IS GOING TO PLACE HIS FAITH IN MEN WHO HAVEN'T GOT AN IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT BUT ESPOUSE DOCTRINES OF DEMONS? NOT ME!
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Edited by - great grace on 06 Jan 2004 08:53:06 AM |
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Sola Scriptura
