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yosemiterocks
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 03:35:18 AM
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Hello to all,
Coming here is a very big step for me. I have been agnostic for most of my life. When I was a teenager, I felt the need to "find" my spirituality. I spent time in various churches with different belief systems. Nothing felt right. I did not feel moved, or convinced of anything. The only thing I am convinced of is, I don't know WHAT to believe. I want to belong, but I don't want to force myself to believe in something just for that purpose alone. I want it to be true. But I have a huge problem.
I feel like I want to explore my curiosity in God, but I cannot come to terms with myself over the issue of homosexuality and God's word on this. I am not homosexual, but I have family members who are. My sister, who is Christian now, and I discussed what is said about this in the Bible. Homosexuality, adultery, murder...they are all considered sins. I disagree that homosexuality should be "lumped" in with these other acts. I feel that acts like murder, adultery, etc., are consious choices a human being makes. These are right or wrong issues, and they know this, and choose one or the other. Homosexuality is not a consious choice a person makes - it is who they are. This is MY personal belief.
My whole life I have been ripped apart by this issue. How can I accept God's word, give him my heart and soul, yet know that His word says that homosexuals (ie, some of my family members) are wrong and/or immoral? I want to so badly believe, but this is a HUGE, HUGE issue for me. My sister and I debated this (friendly debate) and we got no where. She says that her church accepts everyone, no matter what. How can this be, how can they *truly* be accepting, if the Bible says they are sinners?
Please understand, this is my personal belief system - I did NOT come here to debate or be lectured to on this issue! I am on the edge and near tears about this. I really just need to hear honest and calm words from anyone who knows what I mean, who can offer some advice. Should I talk to a pastor or something? I don't know what to do. This is totally affecting/blocking/preventing me from finding my true spiritual place.
I am sorry this is so long...it's been a long time built up in me, I guess...
Thank you for listening,
Ginna |
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nimaway
Australia
28 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 07:22:01 AM
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Hey Yosemite,
I also have an issue with the institution singling out Homosexuals as a much greater sin than any other. I think this is wrong.
I think the reason the bible "lumps" homosexuality amoungst murder and adultery and other such sins, is that in the eyes of God all sins are equal. If you are disobeying God you are disobeying him.
So why does the church say Homosexuality is so much worse! Well it seems to. To the extreme where they won't let them in the Church. It is a sin.. yes... But which of us is without sin... as Jesus said, whoever is without sin shall cast the first stone.
Why are we not treating Homosexuals with Gentleness, love and respect? Why are we treating them as outcasts, singling them out, and sticking them in a little group like those with leprosy... the "too hard pile".
As to weather homosexuality is a concious choice or not, i cant answer that... i don't know. But i believe God gives us a choice in everything. I personally don't struggle with Homosexuality but theres a whole lot of other sins I struggle with, and i find support with other christians in that... why will no one support homosexuals???
God is one of Love...and FORGIVENESS
N. |
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believe in god 02
USA
160 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 10:16:26 AM
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I think it is wrong to single out homosexuallity. They are people to and they should be treted he same. God forgives everyones sins no matter how big or small they are. They need to be treated with gentelness so they know they can change if they want to or at leat knoe they are not an out cast. If you single them out that is as much as a sin a doing it.
Caeli Duckworth |
Edited by - believe in god 02 on 14 Jul 2003 10:41:15 AM |
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yosemiterocks
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 11:38:32 AM
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Thank you so much for your kind response, nimaway. I really appreciate it, more than you know.
My sister has told me that her feelings regarding homosexuality, God and our family members is an issue that is difficult for her to confront. You are dead-on when you say it's an issue put into the "too hard" pile - for her, that's exactly where it is. I didn't want to push the issue to hard, as it began to upset her.
Please, I say this with deep respect, but do you, or anyone here who welcomes homosexuals, feel hypocritical at all to welcome homosexuals into your church, yet knowing that your belief system says that they are just plain wrong? How do you resolve that issue? If it's in the too hard pile, is that where it stays? Is it ever confronted?
I hope I am not going in circles here, it sure feels like it! 
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hal
Ukraine
22 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 1:18:26 PM
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I am a member of the United Methodist church which has an ongoing controversy over ordaining or marrying homosexuals.
One camp wants to accept them even though they openly admit they are practicing their proclivity.
Another camp wants to minister to them to be restored.
It is acceptance versus loving help and restoration.
Here is a scripture that suggests they can be changed.
I Corintians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
This says, "And that is what some of you were" [past tense], and they were transformed. This says to me they could change.
I once ministered to a homosexual that told me he was changed by being abused sexually by his older brothers.
I have heard and read testimonies by homosexuals that they were set free through being delivered from an evils spirit.
I hope this helps.
This site teaches how to carry out the great commission as stated in Mark 16:15-20 |
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Lindsay
USA
1806 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 1:50:38 PM
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Okay. I first want to say that you don't have to automatically buy into the moral teachings of the bible the day you decide that you believe in Christ's sacrifice. When I became a christian I was still very much against the idea that homosexuality was wrong, that other religions were false, that hell was real, etc. And why should I have? seperated for 18 years from truth, it's just not likely your mind can do a 360 in a few moments or days. Our heart was created to grasp the simplicity of the Gospel, but our minds are so complex, it takes God working in us, sometimes for a long time, and an an earnest desire to know the truth (regardless of whether it is what we want to believe) for us to discern what is truth and what is lies.
quote:
but do you, or anyone here who welcomes homosexuals, feel hypocritical at all to welcome homosexuals into your church, yet knowing that your belief system says that they are just plain wrong? How do you resolve that issue?
It depends.
Homosexuality *is* a sin. It is so clear in the bible we can't get around it, but I think it would make Christ weep to see the way some Christians "preach hate" towards homosexuals. (I feel that type of "christian" will have more sorrow on the day of judgement than homosexuals themselves.)
Here's how I approach it: As a Christian, a gay or lesbian person is welcomed in my church or my home anytime. I will accept them, I will be friends with them, I will show them the Love that I have been shown by Christians and if or when they see the truth I share about that Love, I will let God deal with their sin. (Christ always dealt with the person before their sins) The Love that comes from Christ is a purifying and healing love, shedding light on our sins so that we may recognize them. Most every testimony I have ever heard from a repentant homosexual is that GOD revealed their sin to them, not man.
The problem ocurs when homosexuals become "believers" and believe they can twist the definition of sin to suit their pleasures and lifestyle. This is very different from a Christian struggling with homosexuality, I'm talking about Christians who are proud of their actions. The church should judge these people (that is, judge biblically, in love, seeking to correct, not punish) only when the person professes Christ but is unrepentent of open homosexual sins. (In which case, with unrepentent sins, that person is not to take part in communion and thus isn't really follower of Christ)
Struggling homosexual Christians are another matter completely. I have no problem with someone like this in my church, even in ministry positions. As long as a person has an awareness of their sin, a desire to change, and is seeking the Lord's help and forgiveness, Christians have no reason to judge that person. Actually, we have a biblical obligation to love, support, encourage, and build them up.
All of us have a thorn in our side and provided we are repentent of that thorn and we desire to change, none of of have the right to judge each other for it.
It bothers me that Christians feel like we have to have an "all or nothing" policy on it instead of looking at it with biblical temperance. I hate that homosexaulity is like the "pet" sin of the Christian church- the one we like to point at and pick on.
Why should it matter if non-Christians are homosexuals? It's crazy for us to expect ungodly people to live Godly lives.- why should we expect them to conform to our standards? The bible says that no one can live a Godly life without God's Spirit- let alone be convicted of an ungodly life without his spirit- so why do we march around asking people without the Holy Spirit to change their lifestyle so we can be more comfortable? The way I see it, our only concern is to share the gospel with homosexuals (sans hate) and care for those in our own body who struggle with homosexuality.
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Homosexuality is not a consious choice a person makes
Can I address this earlier comment?
I became a Christian when I was 18 and one of the closest relationships I had in high school was with a gay friend. Before I was a Christian- and even after, for a while- I struggled to understand how Christians could say this was wrong when I knew my friend had no choice. I know he would have given anything to be attracted to women like other guys.
But after becoming a Christian I read alot on the issue and my view started to change.
So why do I think some people are attracted to the same sex? Let's look at it pragmatically: how do any of us become who we are? desiring what we do? feeling the emotions that we do? - Two ways, most people agree: 1. our inborn nature, and 1. how we have been nurtured. I have a friend who is a musical virtuoso but he wasn't born one- he had a predisposition to understanding music and being able to hear it on a level most of us can't, but no one can say for sure if he would be a concert violinist today if his parents had not played the role of giving him a violin.
I do not believe a person is born homosexual, but in the same breath I would add one does not "choose" to be homosexual. (although they can chose to not practice the behavior) In the same way my friend could stop playing music, but never stop being a musician, a homosexual person, though the combination of an inborn predisposition to sin and certain environmental factors, cannot change their desire for homosexual sex, but can choose not to practice.
Look at a less ambiguous example: I have a friend who as a girl was repeatedly sexually abused by an older male. Because of the experiences she had, combined with human nature, she, even as a christian, sometimes wants to self-mutilate herself. She does not choose to want to hurt herself, but experiences these desires regardless. Because she can't choose, does that mean I should say to her "Patricia, I've decided I am okay with you self mutilating. It makes me uncomfortable, but I accept and embrace it as a part of who you are."? Definitely not.
Establishing that homosexuality is not a choice does not proove that that action is "good".
Unfortunately, we all have a thorn in our side. Though Patricia is in counseling, she will probably always desire to do self-destructive things, Homosexuals who are biblical christians will probably always struggle to remain sexually pure, others in the body will struggle with a heart inclined towards bitterness and anger, others with greed and gluttony, still others with pride- we've ALL got some sin that haunts us, and ALL of those sins, big or small, are the same in that they seperate us from the God we are called to be in relationship with.
We all have something we don't want to do and if we could, would choose not to desire. But that doesn't mean we are exempt from moral living just for that one thing. Indeed, it is this *one thing* we all struggle with that glorifies Christ the most when we give it up to him. It is in our weakness that He is made strong, when we accept, embrace, and excuse homosexual desires in the church body, we not only allow that person to commit things that DO violate the bible, but we are depriving that person of the opportunity to experience the grace of Christ in their weakness.
Check out 2 Corinthians 12 & 13 for more on this concept:
Satan's angel did his best to get me down; what he in fact did was push me
to my knees. No danger then of walking around high and mighty! At first I didn't
think of it as a gift, and begged God to remove it. Three times I did that,
and then he told me,
My grace is enough; it's all you need.
My strength comes into its own in your weakness.
Once I heard that, I was glad to let it happen. I quit focusing on the handicap
and began appreciating the gift. It was a case of Christ's strength moving in
on my weakness. Now I take limitations in stride, and with good cheer, these
limitations that cut me down to size--abuse, accidents, opposition, bad breaks.
I just let Christ take over! And so the weaker I get, the stronger I become.
2 Cor 12:7-10 (MSG)
So verse 9 basically says:
My forgiveness is enough; it's all you need.
My strength comes into its own in your predisposition to commit homosexuality.
Doesn't sound like the same God that Westboro Baptist (the infamous godhatefags website owners) preaches, does it? Contrary to what they would like us to believe, God doesn't want to strike dead everyone who ever lusted after another man or woman, his heart burns with desire for us to allow his strength to exceedingly make up for our weaknesses.
"Come now, let us reason together," Says the Lord - Isaiah 1:18 |
Edited by - Lindsay on 14 Jul 2003 1:55:56 PM |
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th1bill
USA
1546 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 3:20:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yosemiterocks
Hello to all,
Coming here is a very big step for me. I have been agnostic for most of my life. When I was a teenager, I felt the need to "find" my spirituality. I spent time in various churches with different belief systems. Nothing felt right. I did not feel moved, or convinced of anything. The only thing I am convinced of is, I don't know WHAT to believe. I want to belong, but I don't want to force myself to believe in something just for that purpose alone. I want it to be true. But I have a huge problem.
I feel like I want to explore my curiosity in God, but I cannot come to terms with myself over the issue of homosexuality and God's word on this. I am not homosexual, but I have family members who are. My sister, who is Christian now, and I discussed what is said about this in the Bible. Homosexuality, adultery, murder...they are all considered sins. I disagree that homosexuality should be "lumped" in with these other acts. I feel that acts like murder, adultery, etc., are consious choices a human being makes. These are right or wrong issues, and they know this, and choose one or the other. Homosexuality is not a consious choice a person makes - it is who they are. This is MY personal belief.
My whole life I have been ripped apart by this issue. How can I accept God's word, give him my heart and soul, yet know that His word says that homosexuals (ie, some of my family members) are wrong and/or immoral? I want to so badly believe, but this is a HUGE, HUGE issue for me. My sister and I debated this (friendly debate) and we got no where. She says that her church accepts everyone, no matter what. How can this be, how can they *truly* be accepting, if the Bible says they are sinners?
Please understand, this is my personal belief system - I did NOT come here to debate or be lectured to on this issue! I am on the edge and near tears about this. I really just need to hear honest and calm words from anyone who knows what I mean, who can offer some advice. Should I talk to a pastor or something? I don't know what to do. This is totally affecting/blocking/preventing me from finding my true spiritual place.
I am sorry this is so long...it's been a long time built up in me, I guess...
Thank you for listening,
Ginna
I feel very deeply for your concerns and I understand that there is a great deal of misleading information about this issue. Below is a link to Dennis Jernigans testamony about why he is no longer trapped in that life style and I believe you will be helped greatly by reading it.
The link is http://www.dennisjernigan.com/testimon.html
A servant of Christ,
Bill Taylor
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nedflanders
Australia
18 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2003 : 11:43:49 PM
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Sy Rogers - what a testimony he has on the subject of homosexuality!  If you want a clear understanding of God, then check out what he has to say - you WON'T be disappointed!!
I suggest you visit his website and have a read of some of his articles. Having been in that lifestyle that he says "met my needs better than Christianity did at that time. Christianity only represented rejection and failure to me."
He also said, "Jesus didn't tell me to 'Stop that!', he said 'Follow Me'." God revealed the truth to him, and he changed his life accordingly. Even though it meant suffering "loss", he gained back more than he ever imagined when he decided to serve God's agenda for his life rather than his own.
Go to www.syrogers.com
Jesus loves the sinner, not the sin. He wouldn't have died for us otherwise! |
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nimaway
Australia
28 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2003 : 06:50:48 AM
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Hey Yosemite,
As for weather I feel like a hypocrite accepting Homosexuals into a church... Of course not!
Do I have trouble accepting a sinner into the church.. OF COURSE NOT! Its the same thing.
Jesus is a friend of Sinners. I know that sounds crazy but think about it. When Jesus came to be with us who did he hang out with... prostitutes, tax collectors all the bad guys!
I don't believe Jesus would want us to just ignore people because we dont agree with them... i have this struggle alot with the ministry I am involved with. I am part of a group that ministers to alternate cultures (wiccans, pagans, shamans etc.) Christians tell me all the time "ooo dont get involved in that the devil will get you and they will work magick on you". But who is going to reach them??? These people need God too! There is a fear associated with these people, homosexuals too, Christians are so scared of them, most likely due to the media/propaganda, but God has equiped us and will protect us, I honestly believe that.
Wiccan, Homosexual, the man you pass at the bus stop etc, they all need God, you cant just say "Don't come in our church your a sinner"
Jesus wants people to know him... so if a homosexual wants to walk into my church i think that is a beautiful thing, and i accept and embrace that person...I also think that person is EXTREMELY brave. BEcause they will get looked at and judged by man. But I pray that, that person may know that they don't need to worry about man, but need to be content in their hearts that they are accepted by God.
Just a quick thing... When we sin, we need to be aware of it, and not to go on sinning but to instead try with all we have to stop sinning. Sure we always keep stuffing up but we need to try.
This is where it gets a bit sticky with Homosexuals...because it seems harsh to say you must change your feelings, your attractions... but I believe that God will help them, support them and that they will know in their hearts what is right from wrong. God will not tempt us beyond what we can bear.
N. |
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babyblues
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2003 : 3:07:57 PM
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yosamiterocks,
this is not a loaded or accusing question, I'm just curious, why do you believe homosexuality is nature, not a choice? Is that what your family members have told you?
babyblues |
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leeprice
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 08:13:52 AM
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yosemiterocks,
It's interesting that you should bring this subject up; I was just thinking about it before I read your post!
I am not a homosexual, but I do become quite upset when they are singled out for condemnation, whereas other sins are allowed to slip by in the background.
I know what the Bible says about it, but at the same time I don't see how homosexuality could be any worse than divorce or adultery. (And it's not nearly as bad as rape, child abuse, or spousal abuse!) I sincerely do not want to see divorced people kicked out of church; nor do I want homosexuals kicked out. A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum of saints. If the homosexuals are not going to be allowed into church, then neither should I, because I do have sexual issues from my past (problems with men).
I really do not understand how anyone could choose to be homo, yet I know that the Bible implies that it is a choice. I'm not sure how to explain things like hermaphrodites or Klinefelter's or Turner's syndrome. People say God makes no mistakes, so what if someone is really born gay? I don't know......I just try to treat people with kindness.
If someone is turning to the same sex (gender) because of past sexual abuse, then obviously they do need therapy or something, cause that IS a choice. I have no easy answers, but it's something that I pray about often.
Sorry, I know I haven't helped, but I do understand your concerns.
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PJ
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 08:47:36 AM
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I want to address the post to Lindsay - You're post was amazing and right on the money!!!! Exactly what I would've wanted to say! You described what homosexuality is and where it comes from. Thank you.
Pauline |
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fcs25
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2003 : 10:26:50 PM
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I think a few simple points will help clear up some issues.Being homosexual,whether it's genetic or not is not the issue.Being homosexual[having feeling for the same sex]isn't a sin,it's a temptation and we all are tempted to sin in some way during the course of each day.The Bible condemns the giving in to the temptation[homosexuality....having sex with members of the same sex].Alcoholism is considered to be genetic;does that mean it's morality acceptable to be a drunk because you where born that way? No!The same applies to being homosexual....you cannot help your feelings or who you are sexually attracted to,however does that mean it's morality acceptable to commit the act of homosexuality?No!It's a choice you make knowing that God condemns the act.
Remember Jesus associated with all people and shunned no one.He told them the way to obtain eternal life and what God expects of them; then he left the choice for them to decide. |
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Steve Wilson
USA
160 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 1:10:01 PM
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The reason Gays get more attention as as sin is because it is in a constant motion. If you 'become' gay at age 18 and you are 28 now. That's 10 full years living in sin. If I robbed a bank when I was 18 and I am now 28. That's only about an hour of sin. Ten years of sinning vs. 1 hour of sinning. Which is worse?
The other problem with non gays is you don't have to be religious to find it offensive. So thats 2 hits against gays.
I disagree with some other statements, being gay IS in the mind. A person is only gay because they allow it.
Has everyone forgotten that we have gays to thank for the spread of AIDS? Which has now infected the straight world. That's mass murder on the gay communities head.
Despite, the harse words I may say. I won't accept this sick illness of the mind but I still accept the people as people...and yes I do have gay friends.
********************
Under God |
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Lindsay
USA
1806 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 8:16:36 PM
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quote:
If you 'become' gay at age 18 and you are 28 now. That's 10 full years living in sin
ten full years?!? Are you saying every moment is sin?!
be careful, homosexuality and sin are not 100% synonymous. It is the action of choosing to act on homsexual desires that is sin, not having the desires. Desire and Lust are very different, a girl can desire to marry and sleep with her husband without thinking lustfully. Being gay is not a sin. Neither is being a murderer or being an adulterer. Sin is homosexual actions and thoughts, murderous actions and thoughts, lustful actions and thoughts, etc.
Most people (at least in the testimonies I have heard and read) who have been delivered from homosexuality still consider themselves homosexuals because for most of them, the desire never goes away (a throrn in the side, as paul might say). I think we need to be really careful not to villainize a certain group of people according to a label, but instead to look at the heart individually and consider them by the choices they make.
"Come now, let us reason together," Says the Lord - Isaiah 1:18 |
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nimaway
Australia
28 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 10:37:34 PM
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i'm a little offended by your post Steve,
Are you telling me in the last 10years you havent lied??? you have commited at least a sin a day??
All sins are equal in the eyes of God.
And you blame gays for the spread of aids??
well does that then mean I can blame every single american for the deaths of hundreds of Millions of lives taken due to Globalisation, the 27 countries they have bombed in the last 50 years, the 2.5million lives taken due to sanctions in Iraq, the issue in Nicaragua, the lives lost by the pharmacuetical bombing in Sudan.
Have not the same amount of lives been taken????? So I blame you and judge you of being a worse sinner than me JUST because your an American???
No i don't... what you said was a mass generalisation... ANd if you knew some gay people you would know that they are not "Offensive" as you referred to them.. I have found more love and friendship from my gay friends than i have from most christians... maybe you find them "offensive" but maybe your just conservative.
Frustrated...
N.
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HUGE problem - preventing me from finding God
