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sabian
226 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2003 : 12:21:26 PM
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I see no examples of the Messiah , stoning anyone or puting anyone to death. All I see is forgivness. any thoughts???
Child of YAH |
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leeprice
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2003 : 2:37:51 PM
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I am perceving a hint of an anti-death penalty argument. Am I right?
Well, I still struggle with this one. I believe in forgiveness, but at the same time, I know that God would not allow wickedness to go unpunished forever.
Honestly, I get somewhat confused. I think maybe we should use capital punishment for murderers. But at the same time, I wonder what type of punishment I myself would deserve for my own sins. So I hesitate to cast a stone. 
I don't know-- I just go back and forth a lot.
So, what are your views??
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Edited by - leeprice on 25 Apr 2003 3:36:20 PM |
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sabian
226 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2003 : 4:23:33 PM
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Well I'm taking a break from work but I'll share a little now.
I truly do not understand. YAHSHUA is my example and I don't see any examples that he set but FORGIVENESS. I figure There are enough Judges in the world Why do they need me. I can not see the FATHER seeing me as wrong because I forgave everyone. I also see this is only a fleshly life. Someone else ask me If it a man killed your Mom you would not forgive them and have them put to death. I answered As much as it would hurt I know I will see my Mom again in the resurrection. While there is still a chance For YAH to heal this mans heart. The things of this life do not concern me they are fleshly I can forgive and my Mother will live again. And your right if I have sin in my life and I am a believer I should stone myself or have my peirs stone me . At the same point that could make suicide leagal. I repent of my sins and I'm going to kill myself so I will sin no more. I know that sounds weird but if I can not forgive someone else How can I forgive myself. See what I'm saying??? Hate the sin not the sinner. Not so easy to do.
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sabian
226 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2003 : 10:33:54 PM
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OK now I have some time to spend . Some things to think about
Judgment in terms of condemnation is not our business. Yahshua clearly told us, "Judge not, that ye
be not judged." Judgment is reserved for YHWH alone, and even Yahshua didn't come the first time for
judgment (John 3:17, 12:47).
However, we are to use our intellectual judgment in determining whether something or someone is
sinful, unlawful, evil, , etc. We must exercise that judgment (Matt. 23:23). When we perceive
these things, we are to do our best to help that person to turn from the wrong to the right (Matt.
18:15-17; I John 5:16, etc.) And if they turn to righteousness, we are to forgive them, regardless of how
many times they fall or sin against us (Matt. 18:21-22).
It appears to me that since condemnatory judgment is YHWH’s job, and punishment is also ultimately His
(Rom. 12:19), and since sin is ultimately only against YHWH(Ps. 51:4), then our job is clearly only
discerning whether something is sinful or not and then acting on that discernment with an eye to
forgiveness if he repents, or avoiding the influence of the sinner if he is unrepentant. No matter what, we
should follow His example with regards to mercy (Ps. 136) in all things.
A murderer or rapist would be the hardest to forgive especily if it was a
moment reaction .Most of the time we judge before we think.
Like I get mad at first if something is stolen from me but Two minutes later I think I was a theif . And I
have to reason to judge.I don't like that first two minutes. MAY YAH take that two minutes away too.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood.................but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Hence, YAHSHUA said:
"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man." (John 8:15)
Well, why not?
"For the FATHER judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the SON:" (John 5:22)
So, why not?
"To wit, that YHWH was in YAHSHUA, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto
them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:19)
But, is there a bottom line?
Ephesians 4:32 "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as YHWH for
Messiah’s sake hath forgiven you."
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (I
John 2:2)
So do you get any more insight as to what is right
Child of YAH |
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pipinoz
Australia
1482 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 01:44:27 AM
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Well written, sabian. I enjoyed your last post. And welcome to the forum, by the way. 
Pip |
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Scottie
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 10:14:21 AM
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Hi Sabian,
I was very impressed by your second post in this thread. Thank you. While I have never been one to hold a grudge for any long period of time, there are certain actions that someone could take against me such as ripping me off or possibly harming a member of my family, that might lead me to take a judgemental attitude towards someone.
It would be a lie if I said that I didn't let these things bother me. The offense would be intensified, had they been committed by one that claims to be a brother/sister in Christ. Initially I would no doubt pass my personal,(yet worthless) judgement on them, this would have no effect on that person and would only lead me to bitterness and resentment, two attributes that hinder our growth in the Lord Jesus Christ. It's only through forgiveness that the umbilical cord by which the Lord feeds us spiritually can be unclogged and the spiritual nutrition can be fed to us allowing for our continual growth. |
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sabian
226 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 3:11:35 PM
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I am having this discussion with another friend here is what he posted.
Shabbat Shalom,
Hi Sabian,
I believe you have touched upon a very important principle that YAHSHUA presented through example.
The Written Torah given to the children of Israel did require physical death by the hands of the people.
These laws contained wrath.
It is my view that YAHSHUA magnified many of the written, physical laws of the Torah and gave us
through example a better spiritual way of observance of those same laws. In my view, some laws were
frankly fulfilled such as the laws concerning the "sacrifices". Yet, other laws still exist but with a better
spiritual way of observance given by YAHSHUA.
Here are some examples of laws I am referring too, that were part of the Torah, not the oral traditions of
the Talmud, but the Torah, and YAHSHUA'S teachings that spiritually magnify them,
"KJV Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit
adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath
committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Old Testament Scripture:
"KJV Leviticus 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile
thyself with her.
KJV Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he
that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall
surely be put to death."
The physical act was Adultery. Yet, YAHSHUA said if one simply thinks about another woman in that
way, he is guilty of Adultery.
Here is another example of a Law which was given that YAHSHUA says to do differently now,
"KJV Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right
cheek, turn to him the other also."
Old Testament Scripture:
"KJV Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,"
Another example,
"KJV Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and
hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to
rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
This brings us to our next example of your point Sabian. The death penalty and YAHSHUA'S teachings
through Paul regarding it.
"KJV Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath:
for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith YAHWEH."
"KJV Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three
witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who
hath trodden under foot the Son of YAH, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith
YAHWEH. And again, shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the
living ELOHIYM."
YAHSHUA's own example of forgiveness rather than executing the wrath of the Law is found with the
lady who committed Adultery. There was no question she was guilty of the Law and by the written
Torah should have been stoned to death. Yet, YAHSHUA worked a way out for her and granted her
freedom from the wrath of the Law being death.
YAHSHUA's examples and His death ushered in the practice of showing Mercy from the "Wrath" of the
Written Torah. I believe YAHSHUA'S teachings through Paul in Romans chapter 5 explains exactly why
there is no more "wrath" of the Law applicable to followers of YAHSHUA.
"KJV Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with YAHWEH through our
MASTER YAHSHUA: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,
and rejoice in hope of the glory of YAHWEH. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations
also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience,
hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of YAHWEH is shed abroad in our
hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6 For when we were yet without strength, in
due time YAHSHUA died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet
peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But YAHWEH commendeth his
love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, YAHSHUA died for us. 9 Much more then,
being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when
we were enemies, we were reconciled to YAHWEH by the death of his Son, much more, being
reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in YAHWEH
through our MASTER YAHSHUA, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed
upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not
imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him
that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence
of one many be dead, much more the grace of YAHWEH, and the gift by grace, which is by
one man, YAHSHUA, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is
the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences
unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which
receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one,
YAHSHUA.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto
justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the
obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the
offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin
hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by
YAHSHUA OUR MASTER."
There is now a component of Mercy we are commanded to show to our brethren and to all peoples of
the earth. YAHWEH used "wrath" as an example for to us. YAHWEH has granted mercy to us now, yet
there will be a just recompense of all those who commit sin on that coming Day of Wrath.
"KJV Romans 9:22 What if YAHWEH, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he
might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore
prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the
Gentiles? "
This is a very good topic of study. And again, this is only my view and understanding. Hope you are
having a wonderful Sabbath.
May YAHWEH bless and keep all who seek His Face,
your brother marty
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EDWARD
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 07:13:03 AM
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Forgiveness is sometimes depending on the incident, for the Lord alone at judgment day.
If we were to forgive all the evil men in this world we would simply be allowing predators to freely prey on our loved ones.
there are times when we must act to battle evil, and when forgiveness is beyond the predator except when they meet the Lord.
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Ron G
USA
1161 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 10:55:24 AM
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Dear EDWARD.
From your post-
"If we were to forgive all the evil men in this world we would simply be allowing predators to freely prey on our loved ones.
there are times when we must act to battle evil, and when forgiveness is beyond the predator except when they meet the Lord."
You are absoluely correct. You have common sense, and common sense is not a common thing.
Have a wonderful day- Ron G
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sabian
226 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 12:05:29 PM
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Edward. The way I see it is YAH will not let predators to freely prey on our loved ones if we obey the will of YAH his hand is on of protection is over me and my househ hold.
If YAH lets something happen to me I am going through tribulation trial , YAH is teaching me something .
I see nothing wrong with having faith that YAH has his hand of protection over me and my loved ones.
I want to bring something else into this . Should king David have been put to death by YAH's own LAW? He was punished by the death of his son by YAH but why would YAH kill his son his son did not murder?
YAH let KING David live because he repented. YAH handled it Not the goverment. The way YAH handled it David learned many things.
Cain and Able, Cain killed Able, Cain is a killer . adam should have Killed Able for he is a Killer and Cain could come back to Kill him or Eve. I believe the Law was in the garden. YAH handled it Adam and Eve did nothing. You will be a tiller of the ground . Shouldn't YAH have made Adam Kill Cain like the Law says to do.
I am going to be hated for YAHSHUA's name sake. Like YAHSHUA was hated. I will put my life and my loved ones life in the hands of YAH and have faith that he knows what is right for me and my family.
If his hand is not on me there must me a reason.
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sabian
226 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 3:32:05 PM
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Sorry a few mistakes in my last post I did not proof read the biggest mistake . Adam should have killed Cain. I but Abel
Child of YAH |
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EDWARD
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 3:59:26 PM
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You speak as though freedom of choice is offered only to the righteous.
Evil men are also granted that same freedom, and they choose to do evil.
Are you saying that whenever an evil man, acting of his own freedom, commits an act of evil against the innocent, that his free act of violence is instead a lesson from God to the victim?
No sabian, you cannot say that when evil is enacted against somone that just because God does not stop it means that God must be deliberately teaching them a lesson through tribulation.
You are forgetting that if God is using those evil people as pawns in his effort to teach you through tribulation than those evil people are not being offered the same freedom of choice then that you accord the rest of us.
Evil is not the tool of God as lifelessons to His believers.
Evil is that which opposes the goodness of God. It exists powerfully wherever there is a hate for the love of God. satan is not evil because he does bad things, and he is not being taight a life lesson by God. satan is evil because he deliberately hates God's love. Whether it is in the form of God's mercy toward His children or whther it is in the form of His children toward Him or each other.
When we suffer, it is true that our suffering is working for us a far greater glory, but that is not why evil exists. evil is not a tool of that suffering, it is an entity all to itself and the fact that it acts upon us does not mean that the act is a lesson from our God. |
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sabian
226 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 8:30:15 PM
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Edward can you apply some scripture to what you are saying so I can better understand. Because you lost me. And added to what I have said.
To my understanding we must learn that evil does not work. And that only the Laws of YAH are right.
Psalms 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afficted That I might learn thy statutes.
Look at Psalms 119 And explain how you see it please?
Psalms 89:18 - 22
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goodnight
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 12:11:21 AM
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Romans 13 (NAS)
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
<center><b>she's so dope.
come on.
rip her to shreds.</b></center> |
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sabian
226 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 12:18:28 PM
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YAHSHUA saw alot of sinners How
many did he judge?
People are telling me that is because he will judge them later I say
so will I.
Really my qustion has been from the beginnig is do I have to judge.
Me,myself ,and I . And It is still a qustion I do not know that I'm
right.
I'm am looking at the example YAHSHUA gave. I believe I am to walk
Like that.
Do I have to be involved in Judgement?
Or can I wait as YAHSHUA is waiting for the judgement day when I have all the facts.
My qustion is not is it wrong to judge . It is do I have to judge?
Child of YAH |
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Faithwalker
USA
777 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 06:25:49 AM
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Dr. James Dobson from the Focus on the Family Ministries believes that, as individuals, we do have a moral obligation to obey the moral standards of God and the advise of Jesus. But there is another standard that applies to government who have a moral obligation to protect the lives of the innocent, that notion is biblically supported and I agree.
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved"
(Jesus)
Acts 4:12
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Do I have to judge or can I just forgive???
