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Turtle
USA
40 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 3:25:40 PM
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I would love to have some imput from someone about dealing with betrayal within the church. Our family faced a trauma a few years ago when we found out that an 11 year old boy was molesting our seven year old daughter. This was another prominent family within the church with an impeccable reputation, loved by everyone, respected and involved in leadership roles. They were also very close friends of ours. When the situation was brought before the leadership, we got alot of dancing around and "he said/she said" stuff. We feel confident that the leadership and a few other key people involved believed our side of the story, but there was no effort to either resolve the issue or to ask the other family for any kind of accountability.
We subsequently felt that we needed to leave because we all felt very uncomfortable. This was, I believe, the right choice at the time.
However, there is still no resolve, no reconciliation and no confession (the boy denies all, as do his parents). I struggle daily with feeling like we were abandoned and that our hearts and souls were insignificant to a body of believers that were apart of our lives for more than 10 years. Everyone is polite when they see us, and those who know about the situation talk about how unfortunate this all was, but they are all still there, working and playing and worshipping together like nothing happened. I don't get it......
How can they admit what happened, acknowledge the sin, and then DO NOTHING to hold this family accountable. I am baffled....I don't even know how to explain this to my children (all girls). It is difficult enough to explain injustice in the world....how do I explain in within the church.....
Thanks
Turtle |
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Jezi
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 7:21:09 PM
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That is truly sad Turtle. If the church leadership felt to do nothing in the situation, there are always the authorities to turn to. Did you involve the police? Yes, this is a sin, but it is also a crime, a crime that someone has to be accountable to.
Could it be that it was simply swept under the rug for damage control? Unfortunately, it's very common for a church to not want to deal with this sort of reputation. They feel if a parishner acts out of line, it is a reflection on them.
What does the bible tell us? To withdraw ourselves from those who walks disorderly... so you did the right thing in leaving. I personally would write a letter & copy it to the Pastor, the leaders & anyone else I thought needed to know; writing everything I felt about the situation, & how I felt about them doing nothing.
Love & hugs,
Jezi
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Proverbs 18:19:
A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
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Turtle
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2003 : 8:54:59 PM
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Jezi,
Thanks for the response. In reference to whether we contacted the authorities......When we first found out we contacted our family doctor for an exam (we did not know the full extent of the situation). They, in turn, contacted child services (state law). Child service called our family for their comments. They contacted the other family for their comments and when all was said and done, they felt they had little to go on and because both parties were so young, they essentially blew us off. I was so hoping that the matter could be dealt with in house, that I was actually glad when child service didn't do anything. Inretrospect, I should have trusted my instincts and pushed the matter. I could have called the police which would have opened it up completely, but I felt that it was a manageable sin. I thought the boy would confess and we would all work through it. I found him with my daughter. There was no doubt. She had symptoms for months. I just never knew who it was. Finding them seemed a open and shut case. Nobody saw it that way. By the time I realized that the family involved and the church weren't going to do anything, our daughter was in counseling and we had left the church. I didn't want to put her in anymore threatening situations. I don't know what the right answer was, but that is how it worked for us. It has now been two years and our family still suffers. To start over again, I fear, would do more harm than good. Also, I don't know if there can be any satisfaction for me. I don't know how even a confession at this point would help. Don't get me wrong, we are a solid family in Christ, but there are evident scars. We trust God's hand...it is man's hand that has caused our pain. Thanks for listening...
Lisa |
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Ron G
USA
1161 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 02:46:48 AM
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Dear Turtle,
That is really a tough situation.
Because of the ages of the children, there is no black and white solution. I don't know how accountable an 11 year old is. He will and has undoubtedly denied it happened, and I'm sure his parents want to believe him.
I really don't think the parents can be accountable, as they surely did not know about it and would not have approved. What really can they do?
You did the right thing in finding a new church, after seeing what you did. The church and the boy's family cannot undo what happened, but you would have the indelible memory and that would be a problem.
The Lord Jesus can forgive and forget our sins, but people are not like that. I did lots of things when I was very young and later that I am not proud of, and I feel the Lord has forgiven me, but I myself have not. Will have to wait for the next world for those memories to be erased.
Nothing can undo what happened and what you saw.
The bottom line is- you will not be able to forget. Can you forgive?
May the Lord be with you,
Ron G
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DJ
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 07:06:51 AM
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Is this a non-catholic church? Some people think this problem exists only in the Catholic Church, however, that is not the case.
The rule of thumb is that prominent people in churches (especially non-catholic) are usually "the powers that be" and don't care to be bothered by people who are aware of their faults.
It's up to you to take the steps necessary to protect your child, the church notwithstanding. This is a social issue.
Just because people attend and are active in a church does not mean that they are necessarily christians - many people use church as a status symbol and think their children can do no wrong.
You definitely need to be in another church.
DJ
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Turtle
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 08:03:15 AM
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THanks Ron....The forgiveness is an ongoing process. I feel like the
initial situation with the children was so manageable, not easy, but
manageable. The events that have followed are where I have struggled.
The denial on the parts of the parents. The negiligence of the leadership...These are the areas, I will admit, that I question my level of forgiveness. Would my heart ache this much if I had forgiven them? Someone send some wisdom on that one.
I understand the parents wanting to believe their child. I truly do. When all this was going down, the thought that my daughter could somehow manifest her testimony without provocation was very real to me. I even considered that this young boy was also a victim and maybe there was an adult involved and my daughter was using this boy as a scapegoat. I ultimately answered no to both those questions due to the following reasons: 1) I found the two children in a very compromising situation. 2) My daughter was 7 and in no way could have come up with the details of her situation - they were pretty explicit. 3) When I presented to the other family that maybe there was an adult involved, and would they focus on that, they also dispelled that the situation existed at all. You would think there would be a band of fellow believers trying to find out how these children were victimized! I have a very difficult time believing that this young boy was not abused by another adult. At the very least, he was exposed to some pornograpy. Wouldn't a parent want to find out? It frightenes me to think that the reason it all got swept under the carpet is that everyone knows the answer to those questions and that it is possible right under that same carpet. I think the parents can be accountable. If your child misbehaves, you make choices about confronting the sin. Children are a gift from the Lord to be trained in His ways. If the parent is not responsible in the training and rebuking of their child, what authority should they be given within the church leadership. This family never even skipped a beat in their responsibilities within the church, That accountability would have seemed simple....counsel the parents: never happened. Have the parents take some extra time with their children to rule out this event: never happened. Have someone besides the father and mother question the child: never happened. I know of one or two prayer counseling sessions the son went to. Guess what? His parents never left the room. I remember speaking with the mother about a year later about what I thought she should have done differently...At one point during the conversation, she said to me "What was I supposed to do, put my life on hold!" "Yes", I said. What ministry is more important than our families. If we save the world and lose our own children and partners, what testimony are we really giving?
Forgiving the boy was the easy part! Forgiving the adults has been torturous!! I feel like there will be no peace until I know the truth. I know I need to release it to the Lord, but I know first hand what my daughter and our family have been dealing with, and the idea that this issue is just brewing, waiting to occur again, beacause this young boy has not faced his sin, breaks my heart for this young boy and any other girl he comes in contact with. Statitistically, a young boy who abuses as this one did, has a pretty high rate of becoming a date raper or pedaphile. It has been presented to him that his story will be protected at all costs by his family and the church leadership. He has fulll authority to act again.
I cannot stress enough how involved this abuse was. I was aware of symtomatic behavior in my daughter for at least 6 months prior to finding out the truth. I really thought it was an adult abusing her. It was that real! She was not even 8 when I found out all the details. She has been medically and mentally examined. There is no doubt, as far as mortal man can see, that this abuse did occur. She made pleas to two older siblings during those 6 months and they didn't believe or understand her and never said anything to me or my husband. When everything came to the surface and we sat down with the two older girls, they felt so terrible that they had dismissed her allegations. We have had to work through that guilt, also!
When we made the decision to leave this body, we sat down with the pastor and his wife and reviewed the events. We presented our view and asked that they release us because we felt that nothing was being done to give respect to our daughter and our family or to bring any kind of resolution at all. I think I could let dead dogs lie if I knew that there had been any kind of action taken to try to bring resolve. I mean nothing was done!!!!!!
At that meeting, the pastor's wife asked me if there was any way that we could stay. I believe she was sincere. I believe she wanted resolve. So I told her that if she could tell me scripturally how I could stand in the face of this sin, then we would stay...She could not. They made their confession...They did not want to make a big deal of all this..their relationship with this other family was more important than their relationship with our family...ouch, that hurt...that was betrayal...that was favoritism...That is unacceptable, biblically.
Going for now. Hope everyone is having a great day. Springtime is trying to present herself in full form here and I, for one, would like to celebrate this day that the Lord has made!!
Turtle |
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leeprice
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 12:40:09 PM
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Soem of the church people may have just blown it off as "playing doctor" between children. But playing doctor normally occurs between kids of the same age. I am concerned about the age differences of these two. That sounds like something is indeed wrong. I am sad that no one would take steps to further investigate. (Who know why...... )
I am somewhat worried about the boy who did this. I have worked with abused children in a psychiatric setting, and a lot of times when a child molests a younger child, it is because he (the older one) was molested himself. So I hope that it's not the case with this one, or else two children are getting a bad deal.
I think you made the right decision by leaving the church. I can only hope that that boy doesn't do anything to anyone else.
It sounds like you have a supportive atmosphere for your daughter,which is important. Your love will go a long way, believe me. You may not be able to change what happened, but you can help her scars to be minimal. You all are in my prayers.
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present_truth2002
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 2:11:31 PM
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It is helpful to remember that Satan is the 'Director' of modern day Christianity...as the Bible says, (1 Corinthians 11:13-15).
The current situation of religious leaders are the same as in the days of Jesus Christ's. They talk of right and wrong, but they are devoid of the spirit of God.
Tim Jay |
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Freedom Fighter
USA
362 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 2:53:35 PM
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Beautiful response, leeprice.
But I'm also concerned about that 11 year-old boy and, more realistically, whom he'll find next to assault if those parents won't even deal with it!
I have nothing but sympathy for you, Lisa. What a crumby, crumby situation you're in. I pray God has mercy on that pastor (or priest) who has failed so miserably here to remedy the situation and bring justice to you and your family. I add my prayers herewith to leeprice's prayer that your daughter's healing is completed in Him And that she, when of age, can forgive that boy for his sin -- which is, as leeprice mentioned, likely the result of another's sin inflicted on him!
What a mess is the wake of our sins.
Come, Lord Jesus, quickly.
Freedom Fighter
Protestors United in Christ! |
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Turtle
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 3:21:46 PM
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LeePrice,
I share your concerns about the young boy possibly having been abused himself. That has been my heart cry from the beginning. Maybe some of the pain I feel is like the pain Jesus must feel when we are hurt. As I said earlier, we were very close to this family and I especially loved this boy. I ache for him thinking he is hiding his own shame and anguish. We continue to pray for him, also.
Thanks for your encouragements. Sometimes walking this walk with my daughter has been a burden to bear. It is nice to be encouraged by all of you.
Blessings!
Turtle |
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Earl of Orrery
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 3:38:12 PM
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Turtle,
My wife and I have some experience with denial in church at the leadership level.
Ours was a case of the Pastor preying on some of the women. It was very difficult to catch. He was the Pastor…
God is the one who blew it wide open one day and to finally hear what went on right under our noses was sobering.
To my wife's credit she was much more perceptive than I was. She saw signs that I did not, and when we would talk about them I was always quick to shoot her concerns down.
The church is so caught up with looking right these days that to have a sin, like the one that happened to your child, exposed, is literally unbearable for many congregations.
Did you actually catch them in the act?
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Turtle
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 4:03:01 PM
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Hello DJ,
By the way, this is NOT a Catholic Church.
Turtle |
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Ron G
USA
1161 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 5:17:23 PM
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Dear sister Turtle,
Again I am sorry this thing happened.
I am far from being an expert, but at 7 years old it may not be as tramatic to your daughter as it is to you.
IMO, you should not hold hard feelings toward the parents or the church.They did not personally violate your child. They did not cause this. What if it happened to someone else, and you were a church leader? Could you then forgive or make amends for what happened?
What really can you do? How about the parents? Don't you think they are sick and worried about these accusations?
If you were them, could you decide to all of a sudden hate your 11 year old because he is accused of, and probably guilty of, being curious or doing something sexually wrong?
Sister, I feel for you. Some times, IMO, it is time to let things go and not blame everybody for something that happened. Especially if those individuals had no control over it. My suggestion is to pray for the family and the boy involved.
There is no real reason to suspect an adult is to blame. 11 year old boys are curious.
I pray your daughter is too young to take this as serious as you do. It may mean nothing to her. I don't know.
Lord bless you and your family, Ron G |
Edited by - Ron G on 10 Apr 2003 5:25:43 PM |
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Turtle
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 10:20:58 PM
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Ron G and anyone else with wisdom for the King,
First, let me say that I can hear the kindness you are trying to relay. I appreciate anyone who is not willing to jump in and help someone have a pity party, but please let me assure you that is not what I am doing. I would like to respond to some of your questions, as they are legitimate. After all, I was the one who asked for imput into this delicate situation of betrayal and let us not forget that this is a betrayal.
This is gonna be long, but please stay with me.
If I can be criticized for anything, it is probably that I gave too much grace. That I believed too much in humanity. That I thought righteousness would prevail. I did not go to the authorities and I regret that decision now. I was trying to be respectful of the family involved. I was trying to give them time to absorb the accusations and regain their composure. I very well understood, thru the Grace of God, how incomprehensable this must have seemed to them. They were, in my eyes, the general public's eyes, and probably their own eyes, a good, solid family. How could this have happened to them? I know they struggled with those questions. I feel for that pain. Certainly! But to be honest with you, there was much doubt in my mind that this could be real, also. One of the reasons I put my daughter into counseling was so they could tell me it was all a big mistake. That maybe she was accusing this boy to cover up for someone else. But sadly, all we concluded was that it was all very real, and very traumatic.
When I first found the two children, and yes, I found them, I called a friend who is a social worker. She recommended that I take my daughter to a doctor immediately based on the details of her accusation. I waited nearly two weeks, to give the other family time to cope. That was my secoond mistake. The information that my daughter gave me would have put her at risk of STD's and other physical trauma if there had been an adult in this situation in any way. LeePrice noted, and he is clinical accurate, that for a child to do what this boy was accused of, the chances were high that he himself was probably abused. We did not know who or how all of this manifested, but it did not start with "playing doctor". Many of us understand that term all too cleary by our own experiences. This was different. Remember, I said she had symptoms months before all of this was uncovered. Finding the children together was simply the final key to an already difficult situation. There is so much there that would help you understand that I am not over reacting or being more emotional than she is. I would love to see my daughter be the girl she once was, and I pray that God will restore her spririt, but it is evident that she has been violated. I trust God for her healing. What I am serching for here is some direction in my own healing. That should give clarity to your questions to whether I am making a bigger deal of this than she is and whether I ever thought about the other side of things.
As per your comment of not holding hard feeling toward the parents or the church because they didn't violate my daughter, let me address that one fairly......I don't know what feelings I have..that is part of the process. It is more confusion than bad feelings. I don't wish anything bad for them...I simply don't understand them. As for whether they violated her, let me present this to you. When all of this started, I asked the family involved to be respectful and not have any communication or contact with my daughter until we sorted through this. We are talking about 2-4 weeks into this. I was very clear. Understandibly, we still attended the same church, and there would be common allowances, but I wanted nothing deliberate. The father was involved with the children's ministry at the time. We had a regular Sunday school, and my daughter was to stay with her older sister at all times. I walked with her to class, picked her up from class. She had an ally at all times. She was afraid of this boy. At some point during the class, the boy started being disruptive with another boy sitting next to him. The father called my daughter, out of all the other children in the class (25) to sit between the two boys to separate them for the rest of the class. Anyone out there think this man violated my daughter besides me! I have been as kind as a mortal can be without offering her to him personally! Moving on....
Next question! Could I hate my 11year old because of what he was accused of? Absolutely not! I don't believe I have ever asked this family to do anything of the sort. On the contrary, I wanted them to love him more than their own pride and reputation! Enough on that!
And lastly. Sometimes we just need to move on and stop blaming everyone else for our problems when they had no control over it! You are right..I am infamous for telling people to move on and take responsibility for their own crisis'....absolute truth...I'm not blaming the parents or the church leadership for what happened to my daughter. They had nothing, as far as I know, to do with that. But I would be reckless to not hold them accountable for the subsequent sins.....
1. Ignoring my wishes for distance between the children..btw, that was not the only incident...I still have to remind them that they have lost that privelege. We occasionally run into each other and they act like nothing has happened.
2. Continuing to deny the possibility of my daughter being right...There official statement is that the boy said it only happened once and that my 7 year old daughter initiated it. That doesn't fit the pattern of her behavior...but that may help you understand why I was so willing to believe that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and maybe my daughter had been molested by someone else. but there has been no evidence to represent that.
3. One more thing. I never told you how the church leadership got involved. The mother had a conversation with the pastor, just a good old fashioned "let's talk about the weather" conversation and told him about "an embarrassing moment this week when Mrs. So and So found my son naked with her daughter". It was a joke to her. She already admitted that she thought the whole thing was ludicrous. The pastor then told the associate pastor who then told the youth pastor (I was one of the youth advisors at the time), and so on and so on. ...up until that point, I had told no one outside of my husband, my friend who was a social worker (living in another state, off the record), the family practitioner, and the child service lady. Not my family, my friends....not even my pastor. I so thought this was manageable between friends...good friends! One month later, my associate pastor calls me at home while my husband is at work and says he has been made aware of the situation between the two families. They all sat around for a month, watching us suffer, not saying one word, drinking coffee and trying to figure out what kind of damage control they could do. I personally think they thought I was ready to go to the authorities and wanted to sidetrack me. I was so blind! I would like to add that a year later I found out that the entire intercessory group (meeting regularly on Friday nights, in which the mother is a major player) had also been told from the beginning....all for the sake of prayer. HYPOCRITES.
Ron, I sincerely hope that you have hung in there with me as I have vented....this has been such a painful walk.. I really do not want to be angry anymore, but I also feel like this was such an injustice. Nail me to the cross... but did it have to be from my own people. I'm not even talking about how Jesus felt when the Jews persecuted him, more like when Judas betrayed him...Here I am...back at square one.
Without going into anymore details and without you knowing my true heart, it is rather difficult to assume that what I am facing is true and real. It is something to be skeptical of...any mother would want to protect her young and maybe emotions make us vulnerable. But they also make us human and God wants our hearts to be soft, to be open. But, man, it hurts sometimes.
Blessing to you all hug your children tonight if you have any.
Turtle |
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my quivers full
Canada
280 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2003 : 11:14:41 PM
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Dear Turtle,
Wow what a situation to deal with. I will be praying that God Gives you more than enough wisdom to act appropriatly towards the family and church leaders and that He brings a full healing to your family and to everyone involved directly in this situation.
It sickens me to think that this church leadership prefers their relationship to this family, than living righteously. Jesus reiterated time and time again how appearances were of little value, and that he who humbles himself and lived righteously and in a holy manner were more pleasing to the Father. It will be much easier for God's spirit to move and His blessing to flow on this congregation, when the leadership values thier relationship to Jesus more than other people.
If we can't live clean and pure with our christian brothers and sisters, then we are living in sin. I don't take this to mean we should air our dirty laundry, but if I've sinned against you, i owe it to you, me and to God to make it right. If I don't feel that I've sinned against you, but you feel that I've wronged you, I still have an obligation to seek your forgivness. My computers on the fritz, but I know there's a scripture in proverbs that says a Brother offended is harder to be won than a walled city. How true.
I will add to my prayers that the family, boy included, will see the hurt that has been caused in this situation, and will choose to accept responsibility and make it right. Forgivness here is not easy, But I know the Lord will help you to be an overcomer. Let's pray the Family joins you in overcoming this through repentance so all of you can move on in your relationships to the Lord.
Col 3:1-4 |
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Ron G
USA
1161 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2003 : 02:41:06 AM
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Dear Turtle,
I followed your post, and understand your feelings as best I can as an outsider.
I still don't know what the church leadership was supposed to do. In OT times they may have taken the 11 year old and his whole family outside and stoned them to death, but that is not appropriate today.
I guess they should have kicked the whole family out of the church, making it known to the whole congregation that they were a bunch of perverts. They chose not to do that.
Do you think the the 11 year old should be put in prison? The church of course does not have the authority to do that. That would be up to the state authorities.
You changed churches, that was definitely the right thing to do under the circumstances, but you still feel cheated out of justice.
Depending on how one looks at it, the Lord was cheated also when He was on this earth. He committed no sin, but was punished terribly and crucified by wrong doing sinners. So the Lord Jesus can relate with how you feel.
The big question now is closure. How can you get closure for this terrible thing that happened? What would it take? Can you forget it? NO WAY! Can you forgive????? I'm sure it will at least take a lot of time. IMO, you will have no peace until you are able to forgive all that you hold accountable. I wish you well.
May the Lord be with you! |
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Betrayal within the church
