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clswearingen
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 11:41:30 AM
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Help??? I was born a Catholic, but my husband is Christian. We have agreed to not necessary raise our children Catholic. I would like to have our new baby Baptised, but do they perform Baptisim on babies? My husband was not Baptised until he was 15.
Cheryl |
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JesusFreak777
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 12:20:12 PM
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As far as I know they don't. You usually get baptised after you have accepted Chrsit as your personal savior, now if they do baptise a baby then most likely it's only because that is showing that your keeping a promise that you will raise your child in a Christ-like manner.
Hope that helps.
Fellow Christian,
JesusFreak
P.S Do catholics believe that mary is a god?
Come to Jesus just as you are!!!! |
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Mrs. Noah
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 12:32:35 PM
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The Lutheran Church baptizes infants and you will find is similar in many ways to the Catholic. Being raised Lutheran myself, and after studying other denominations, I would like to "typify" it as a "bridge church" between the Catholics and the non-Catholic.
"..For I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future..." |
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Lindsay
USA
1806 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 12:38:32 PM
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Although I am sure someone else (Ashlyn?) can give you some pro-infant baptising information. Most Christians follow a line of teaching that basically says since everyone who is recorded as being baptized in scripture has conciously made a choice for Christ, we should not baptize our children until they make a concious choice for Christ.
Most Christian churches will not baptize a child or infant. What they will do is perform a public infant dedication. Like that in 1 Samuel Chapter 1.
I spent the summer of 2000 in Colorado and while there I attended an infant dedication. It was very similar to a baptism, except a little different. The pastor read and talked about Samuel Chapter 1 (When Hannah dedicates her son to the Lord). The family stood before the church with their child and confirmed that they wished to give their child's life to God and would do their part in leading their child to Truth, and then the Pastor and congregation prayed as a body for the salvation and blessing of the child to God's service.
To me, the idea of dedication seems to be a pretty good example of how to tell God we want our child to grow up in his service without performing some sort of "false baptism" or something that wouldn't entirely edify Him or be a "doctrine of man".
Ultimately, I don't think there is a "wrong way" to demonstrate to God the submission of your child to His ways but I will tell you what clenched it for me. I go to a Christian college and I know several people who were baptized as infants and when they grew up and made the choice to follow Christ, it caused a lot of confusion as to whether they should be baptized again- in one case, it was really a door for satan to attack them.
Baptism is such a clear metaphor: giving up ourselves, allowing our life to be taken, and being risen from the water no longer ourself, but with Christ in us. A person should have the right to chose when to give up their life to Christ and I personally think that having that active conciousness of the choice and the memory of that time/event is important.
"Come now, let us reason together," Says the Lord - Isaiah 1:18 |
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Faithwalker
USA
777 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 01:02:37 AM
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Christian Churches 'dedicate' infants to Christ. This is a short group ceremony that I recommend for your child. Infant baptism is a man-made tradition not supported by the Bible. A infant can not confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Baptism was meant to be by full immersion in water, not sprinkes.
"Let him not deceive himself by trusting what is worthless, for he will get nothing in return. " Job 15:31
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mercyrules
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 9:41:50 PM
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quote:
I was born a Catholic, but my husband is Christian.
I hear many Catholics differentiate between being Catholic and being Christian. Catholics ARE members of the Christian faith. Catholics are Christians. THe above difference might be better expressed as "Catholic, but my husband is Protestant"
quote:
I would like to have our new baby Baptised,
If you would like to have your baby baptised, I would encourage you to do so. Many Protestant denominations baptise infants. If your heart tells you to seek baptism for your baby, please do so.
COngratulations on your precious new baby! I hope you find every blessing of motherhood fulfilled. May God continue to bless you. |
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mercyrules
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 9:51:33 PM
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quote:
P.S Do catholics believe that mary is a god?
No, Catholics do not believe Mary is a god. Catholics believe Mary was the virgin mother of Jesus, just as the Bible relates. But, like other areas of the Christian faith, Catholics have spent over two millenia contemplating deeply the implications of what it meant to be the mother of Christ.... |
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L~G
59 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2003 : 9:33:36 PM
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Great answer from mercyrules about Mary.
.
As for Catholics and Baptism ~
Please read Luke chapter 2 for the whole story, but there is this verse in particular.....
Luk 2:27
And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
This act of Joseph and Mary taking Jesus to the temple after his birth is called "The Presentation". It's the act of offering the child (which is a gift from God) back to God in praise and thanksgiving. I think circumcision was also done at this time.
Anyway, I don't know why Catholics labelled The Presentation as Baptism and then labelled the receiving of the Holy Spirit as Confirmation. I don't know the history as to why these labels were given, but they were 2 separate events in the life of Jesus ~ one at birth and one when he was older.
So today Catholics continue this practice to do as Jesus did, however, Catholics offer ALL their children to God in a Presentation ceremony and not just the male children. Although they, of course, are the ones that get circumsized, the females are still offered to God w/ praise and thanksgiving.
God Bless to all,
L~G |
Edited by - L~G on 14 Mar 2003 9:37:57 PM |
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blainethepaine
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 4:08:04 PM
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Faithwalker,
You said,
quote:
Infant baptism is a man-made tradition not supported by the Bible. A infant can not confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Baptism was meant to be by full immersion in water, not sprinkes.
Incorrect on all accounts. The Bible does not speak either way on the issue. It speaks of entire households being baptized (and one might assume infants were included in this), but it is really just speculation. One thing that it is good to remember is that grace is a free gift from God. We cannot merit baptism. It is a gift. An infant cannot confess, but that child's parents can confess to bring up their child in the Christian home. Where you get that baptism is to only be performed by immersion is completely unknown to me. The Didache, or The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, a document from the first century giving ecclesiastical norms, clearly states that pouring is an acceptable mode of baptism. Immersion is preferable (as all Churchs admit), since it shows the full symbolism of what is actually happening, but is not required for the effects of the Sacrament.
Pax Domini,
-jack |
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RandomAx
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 7:17:44 PM
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haha...i know this is a tad bit off topic, but i'm going to respond to the catholics view of mary. Catholics may not declare Mary to actually be a goddess, but in many of their actions and attititudes toward her, they put her above God. First, they are called to say "hail mary's" in their prayer time. Now, they are also required to say the Lord's prayer etc. but they are required to say 5 times as many hail mary's as they are the Lords prayer. Now i know both of these are vain repatitions in most cases, but this is still giving mary 5 TIMES AS MANY prayers as God. Also, the Catholics have many many distorted beliefs on mary as they are declared to be true by the pope. One such belief is that Mary remained a virigin her WHOLE life. This is hugely ridiculous as Jesus had many brothers and sisters....and i'm sure none of them were as special as Jesus. The final point i'm going to make, is not an actual belief in the Catholic church YET. There is a big movement now in the Catholic church for the pope to claim that Mary is co-redemptrix. As rediculous as this thought may seem, it's actually gaining more support as time passes. I certainly hope this fails, but i'm sad to say i don't truly expect it to. Ne ways, sorry to post sorta off topic here, have a great day
Christianity is not a Religion, it's a Relationship |
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L~G
59 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 8:47:50 PM
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Well rather than mock or laugh at the Catholic church, *I* prefer to find the commonalities of Christianity. It's people that want to focus solely on the differences that constantly stir up division. I'm sure satan loves division among Christians.
Anyway, the Catholic Church does not teach nor promote Mary as higher than God or Jesus at all.
As for the rosary.........has anyone ever heard of Contemplative Prayer or Meditative Prayer? That's what the rosary is. It's the story of Jesus.
As for the Hail Mary prayer itself, it's in the bible. Here it is ~
Luke 1:42
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:43
And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Then Mary replies ~ and the bolding is mine.
Luke 1:48
For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Gee. Look at that will ya! Why is it then that only Catholics seem to give Mary the honour and respect and call her blessed? So if anyone has a problem with that, then take it up with Luke when you see him because it's in his section of the bible.
Better yet, take it up with God because this is God's book and if God didn't want it in His book, then I'm sure God is big enough that He could somehow have made sure it did not get into His book. So.........I guess that sorta means God wanted it in there. Gee, do you think God respected Mary too? I mean He did choose her and not some other woman. Must've been something special about Mary then.
But oh wait.....look......even the angel had something to say to Mary ~
Luke 1:28
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.
Wow. That angel doesn't shove her to the side like she's nothing special either. And if the angel is visiting her under the order of God Almighty and giving her so much honour and respect, then how come Catholics are the only ones that seem to give her honour and respect? I don't remember any angels in the bible visiting anyone else and saying such high words of honour. Maybe I just missed that though.
So like I said before......satan loves division. It keeps God's people fighting and arguing and laughing (haha) at fellow Christians that are trying to honour God and the servants of God, whether those servants be Mary or Luke or Peter or you or me.
I vote for community and not division, but I know perfect community will not exist here until Jesus returns.
God Bless all of you.........no matter what church you attend. I'm just glad you're a believer in Jesus and I won't argue your point of view.
L~G |
Edited by - L~G on 18 Mar 2003 8:58:47 PM |
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blainethepaine
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2003 : 8:54:38 PM
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RandomAx,
Wow..I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try.
quote:
Now i know both of these are vain repatitions in most cases,
Gee...last time I checked seeing into the hearts of men was a prerogative of God. But I could be wrong there...
quote:
they are also required to say the Lord's prayer etc. but they are required to say 5 times as many hail mary's as they are the Lords prayer. Now i know both of these are vain repatitions in most cases, but this is still giving mary 5 TIMES AS MANY prayers as God. Also, the Catholics have many many distorted beliefs on mary as they are declared to be true by the pope.
Catholics have never been required to say Hail Marys. I have no idea where you got this. Our "distorted views" are not binding so much because they were "declared to be true by the pope" as they are binding due to the fact that they are consistent with the constant, historical Tradition of the Church.
quote:
One such belief is that Mary remained a virigin her WHOLE life. This is hugely ridiculous as Jesus had many brothers and sisters....and i'm sure none of them were as special as Jesus.
Please do not call my beliefs ridiculous. I could easily turn this around on you, but out of Christian charity and respect for this forum I will not. Remember, this was believed by men and woman many, many times more educated and devout than anybody here, and from the earliest of times. You notion of Christ's "brothers and sisters" is speculative at best, since in the ancient languages the word "brethren" could just as easily refer to cousins as it could to natural siblings.
quote:
There is a big movement now in the Catholic church for the pope to claim that Mary is co-redemptrix. As rediculous as this thought may seem, it's actually gaining more support as time passes. I certainly hope this fails, but i'm sad to say i don't truly expect it to.
Ummm...I really don't think you have any clue what this term means, since you seem to be implying that it is somehow blasphemous. The title stresses Mary's cooperative actions in the plan of salvation...nothing more, nothing less.
Anyone interested in what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY believes can see the OFFICIAL text of Catholic doctrine and Faith in The Catechism of the Catholic Church at the following link,
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc/index.htm.
Pax Vobiscum,
jack |
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Katie
USA
97 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 5:52:23 PM
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OKAY,so, back to the topic (although I'd like to give a shout out to those who know their faith and defend it). I was raised Protestant and always had a hard time with infant baptism. When I was going through my classes (before I joined the Catholic Church, I studied for six months on all of the teachings of the faith) I kept coming across passages in the New Testament that talked about receiving the Holy Spirit from baptism, as well as stories about whole families being baptized at the request of the head of the household. The adults had heard the good news and wanted the gift for their whole family. The family hadn't heard anything, witnessed anything, they were baptized due to the faith of someone else. It is great to have a family that teaches you the truth and tries to guide you to Christ, but the Holy Spirit is with you always and can help you when your family can't. How wonderful to have that help your entire life?
Unfortunately, this is one major reason why it is not recommended to marry someone outside of your faith. The best any of us can do is pray for you to The One who knows the truth.
--K--
May there be peace on Earth, let it begin with me. |
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aiki
Canada
594 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 10:05:41 PM
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Hello all.
I think the big problem with infant baptism is that, as some have mentioned, it is equated with salvation. That is, a baptized child is, by virtue of that baptism, guaranteed eternal life in heaven. This may not be the actual official stand of the R.C. Church, but this is the view held by the many adherents to this faith that I know.
The facts of scripture make it pretty plain that baptism is not a part of what saves a person (Eph. 2:1-11; Ro. 4; Ga. 1-3). Baptism is an outward sign of an inward, spiritual change (Ro. 6). Since a newborn infant is not capable of understanding the gospel and so prevented from the inward change that arises from its acceptance, it cannot give evidence of this change by baptism.
Why, then, baptize an infant? If it is simply an act of dedication like that which has been described of the Protestants, why is it considered by so many Catholics to be salvationary? If not symbolic of death to the Old Man and of the new life in Christ, what does the baptism of the infant signify?
Citing the fact that whole households in the N.T. were baptized as grounds for infant salvific baptism is to stretch these instances to suit a viewpoint while ignoring the whole counsel of scripture.
Be wise, friends.
In Christ, Aiki.
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man comes to the Father but by me." Jn. 14:6 |
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blainethepaine
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 12:02:48 PM
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Hi Aiki,
You wrote,
quote:
Citing the fact that whole households in the N.T. were baptized as grounds for infant salvific baptism is to stretch these instances to suit a viewpoint while ignoring the whole counsel of scripture.
Whole counsel huh? Don't tell that to St. Peter,
"...in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now." 1 Peter 3:20-21
I think that baptism would be a tad superfluous if it were not necessary. Sure, it gives the community a great show of rebirth for the new convert. But that does not explain why folks in the early years (and still now in just about all Christian communities) were baptized on their deathbeds when noone else is around. Obviously we are dealing with something here that is a requirement in some way or another for the Christian life.
Your views on the unnecessity of infant baptism lead me to believe that you reject the doctrine of original sin. Do you believe that all people are born with the stain of Adam's fault? An understanding of this is essential to understand the Catholic (and just about every traditional Protestant) view of baptism. Since we believe this, what possible reason would we have to deprive a child of the grace of baptism?
Remember, we also believe that baptism brings the sanctifying (i.e. saving) grace of God to one's soul. Since Adam's stain is on all men, it is only logical that little infants be cleansed of this "smudge" on their soul and be brought into the Church as a "child of God".
We believe that if someone is baptizes and avoids sin and then dies, that person is still swelling in the saving grace of Christ and would enter heaven. But, since people are inclined to sin (what we call concupiscence), we believe Christ gave us the sacrament of confession to cleanse us of sin committed after baptism and to restore us to the state of saving grace. Of course I realize that most non-Catholics reject confession to a priest. But it is interesting to note that, contrary to what many non-Catholics (and even some Catholics
 ) believe, we believe that a person can confess to God directly if there is not a priest available if that person is sincerely sorry for their sins because of their love of God. This is what we call "perfect contrition" (imperfect contrition would be one being sorry for one's sins because of a fear of God's just punishments).
Anyways, sorry for any thread drift and sorry if I am spouting stuff at you that you were already aware of. Just wanted to let you know where us "fish-eaters" are coming from .
Pax Christi,
jack |
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gdg65605
USA
1589 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2003 : 2:59:48 PM
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quote:
Whole counsel huh? Don't tell that to St. Peter,
Hey blane,, pity you didn't keep going with that scripture you quoted, one wonders how an infant has or needs a "good conscience toward God", as Peter said. Obiviously he wasn't speaking of "infant baptism" and just as obiviously didn't acknowledge the concept. quote:
Your views on the unnecessity of infant baptism lead me to believe that you reject the
doctrine of original sin. Do you believe that all people are born with the stain of Adam's
fault? An understanding of this is essential to understand the Catholic (and just about
every traditional Protestant) view of baptism. Since we believe this, what possible reason
would we have to deprive a child of the grace of baptism?
Have you ever considered the insainity of the doctrine of "infant damnation"? What kind of person would believe or teach that about God? quote:
Remember, we also believe that baptism brings the sanctifying (i.e. saving) grace of God
to one's soul. Since Adam's stain is on all men, it is only logical that little infants be
cleansed of this "smudge" on their soul and be brought into the Church as a "child of
God".
Again, since using ritual as a substitute for the supernatural. There is a real supernatural to be had, as even the RC church acknowledges, we don't have to make stuff up. quote:
But it is interesting to note that, contrary to what many non-Catholics (and even some
Catholics
) believe, we believe that a person can confess to God directly if there is not a priest
available if that person is sincerely sorry for their sins because of their love of God. This
is what we call "perfect contrition" (imperfect contrition would be one being sorry for
one's sins because of a fear of God's just punishments).
It's sad here that you need another intercessor between you and God besides Christ, and points to the major difference between christians and catholics. Christians believe that there is and can only be one intercessor, The Lord Jesus Christ.You stand or fall, based on your willingness to except him, to recieve his Word in your life. We are all priests, called by God, a chosen generation, and a royal priesthood. I would like to point out that you can meet God here and now, and for yourself, as the scripture teaches.
Greg |
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Topic |
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Baptism - Catholic vs. Christian
