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sven the jew
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2003 : 10:42:20 PM
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hello. i'm not a christian. i'm jewish. but i've been told by several christians that jews don't get into heaven. what do some of you think? agree or disagree, and why?
jewish and proud of it, ya crazy schmucks! |
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Faithwalker
USA
777 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2003 : 10:56:17 PM
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It is really an honor for me to address one of the actual descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. As a student of the Tenach and the New Testament, I have learned to have the utmost respect for the Jewish nation and culture. Your people have survived anti-semitism attacks from many nations for almost 4000 years! No one knows for sure if the Jewish people are given a pass to enter heaven. God laid out a very clear plan of salvation and called it the only way to Him. From the first sin of Eden God has been preparing a way for His people to reconcile. Blood atonement was a ritual to prepare the way to accept the 'Ultimate Atonement'. His Prophets gave warning, the Covenants were all in preparation to the final 'Everlasting Covenant'.
The Egyptians, Caanites, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Greeks, Romans, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the French, the Turks, Adolph Hitler, the English, the Russians, the Arabs, the PLO, and even the United States have all persecuted the tiny nation of Israel at some time in our history. It does not surprise me at all to find that everyone of these nations were once world powers UNTIL they attacked G*d's chosen people. Now all of them are either extinct or third world powers. G*d was correct when He said to Abraham that "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." (Gen 12:3)
True Gentile Believers who really study the Tenach love the Jewish people. However, many Gentiles in the past have maliciously afflicted you, and often in the name of Jesus Christ. We ask you to forgive us for not honoring G*d's chosen people in our past history. Please forgive us for the terrible atrocities and afflictions that we have put upon this great nation of Israel.
We know that G*d is not yet finished with Israel. Before Moses even took Israel into the land, G*d himself predicted that Israel would rebel against G*d and that they would be scattered among all nations. (Deu 28:62-68) However, the Tenach also promised to bring you back into the land (Ezekiel 36:24), and it predicted that Israel would exist forever. (Jeremiah 31:36-37)
So here you are, back in the land with one billion Arabs wanting to run tiny Israel into the sea. Anti-semitism is brewing up all over again in Europe and even in the United States. Arab terrorists (who own 40 times as much land as tiny Israel) are trying to bully Israel into giving up the little land that they do possess for peace. Why?
Presently Israel is putting their faith in their science, their nuclear technology, their air force, the United States, and in the United Nations. However, none of these will save them from the Days of Awe to come. Their only hope is in their long awaited Messiah!
According to Bible prophecy, G*d is putting extreme pressure on Israel so that they will have to turn to their Messiah. Ezekiel 38-39 talks about a Russian-Arab confederacy that will come against Israel in the last days. Only the Messiah can deliver you from this onslaught by Gog and Magog.
But who is the Messiah? Where is the Messiah? When is the Messiah to come? The Tenach answers all of these questions very specifically. It teaches that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem (Mic 4:2), through the seed of a woman (Gen 3:15), by a virgin (Is 7:14), through the seeds of Abraham (Gen 22:18), Isaac (Gen 21:12), and Jacob (Gen 28:14), from the tribe of Judah (Gen 49:10), and through the line of David (2 Sam 7:12-13): He would be preceded by a messenger (John the Baptist?) to prepare the way (Mal 3:1), his ministry would be in Galilee (Is 9:1-2), and He would enter into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zech 9:9). He would work miracles (Is 35:5-6), but He would be rejected by his brothers (Ps 69:8), betrayed by his best friend whom he shares His bread (Ps 41:9), sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12), and the money would be thrown into the potter's field (Zech 11:13). He would be smitten (Mic 5:1), spit upon and scourged (Is 50:6), nailed to the cross (Ps 22:16), forsaken by G*d (Ps 22:1), mocked (Ps 22:7-8), and given gall and vinegar to drink (Ps 69:21). He would be silent during His suffering (Is 53:7), His garments would be parted and lots would be cast for them (Ps 22:8), He would intercede for his murderers (Is 53:12). He would be pierced (Zech 12:10), killed (Is 53:12), none of his bones would be broken (Ex 12:46), and He would be buried with the rich (Is 53:9). However, He would also be resurrected from the dead to prove that He is the Messiah (Ps 16:10), and He would ascend into heaven. (Ps 68:18) All of these events had to happen before the temple destruction of 70 A.D. (Dan 9:26) The Messiah will also return a second time to fulfill all the Messianic promises to Israel.
Why am I, a Gentile, writing all this to a people that I hardly know? Because I want you to know that no one in history could be your Messiah except Yeshua. All of these prophecies were written by Jewish prophets at least 400 years before Yeshua was born! Yeshua was Jewish. All his Apostles were Jewish. The entire New Testament was written by Jews. The entire early church was Jewish until they began to evangelize the Roman Gentile world.
I know that your GREAT Jewish culture and tradition teach against this, but please remember: No culture, not even the greatest of them all--the Jewish culture--is infallible! Only the Tenach is infallible, because it contains over 2000 prophecies that have been fulfilled without one single error. No other religious book in the world can claim even ONE prophecy!
However, you may rightly declare that "Hear Israel, The Lord our G*d is one G*d." (Deu 6:4) You are exactly right! Looking at this scripture in your original language of Hebrew will confirm this and another great truth, Shamu Yisrael, Yahweh Elohinu echod Yahweh" translates as "Yahweh our plural G*d (is) one composite Yahweh." Notice that Moses used echod, the Hebrew word for a "composite one" rather than "yicchod," the Hebrew word for "one and only one?" Another example of this is in Genesis 2:24 when G*d says, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one (echod) flesh."
In the very first sentence of the Torah, Moses declared that "In the beginning G*d created the heavens and the earth." In Hebrew, it reads "Beresheet bara Elohim ha shamayyim waet eretz."
Notice that Moses does not identify Adonai with the singular "El" (G*d) or the singular "Yahweh." Instead, he introduces G*d as the plural "Elohim." However, he uses the Qal Perfect, 3rd person singular in the verb form of "bara." Therefore, the original Hebrew reads "In the beginning Elohim (the plural G*d) He created (singular) the heavens and the earth."
This Trinitarian concept is further confirmed in the next two verses. In verse 2, we see the Spirit of G*d moving upon the face of the earth. In verse 3, we see the "Light of the World" which is the Messiah. In conclusion, the first three verses of Genesis show the Father as Creator in verse 1, the Holy Spirit as energizer in verse 2, and the Messiah as the light of the world in verse 3. Elohim is one plural G*d, but He creates in the singular tense.
This is confirmed even further in verses 26-27 of the same chapter. Elohim said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness . . ." (v. 26) Again, we see that Elohim, the Triune G*d, is having a divine conversation with Himself! This cannot be the angels, because according to Isaiah 44:24, G*d said that "I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself."
In the very next verse, Moses states that "Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim He created him; male and female He created them." (v. 27) Moses informs us that Elohim creates man in His image--a trinity. Does not man exists of body, soul, and mind, but he is one human being?
Why do the Rabbis of Israel not recognize this great truth? They did, but they tried to explain it away with a joke. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis records, "Rabbi Samuel bar Nahman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this verse which says, "And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness," Moses said, "Master of the Universe why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the triunity of G*d)." G*d answered Moses, "You write and whoever wants to err let him err."
Before G*d destroyed the Tower of Babel, He had another divine conversation with the Trinity, "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." (Gen 11:7) Again, G*d spoke in the plural. However, in the very next verse, Moses records that "the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city" in the singular verb tense.
There were also two Yahweh's at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Moses records that one Yahweh was already present with Abraham on earth. "Then Yahweh rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah --from Yahweh out of the heavens." (Gen 19:24) If you look deeper into this passage, then you will notice that Moses reveals a second Yahweh in the heavens, yet once again the cities are destroyed by one Yahweh in the singular tense.
In the second Psalm, we find that a prophetic glimpse of the future as all the rulers of the earth "gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One." (Ps 2:2) But who is this Anointed One with Yahweh? The answer is found in verse 7, as Yahweh Himself declares "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." This Psalm describes Yeshua the Messiah as the Son of G*d who will rule over the earth in the Messianic Kingdom.
King David also hinted that there were two personalities, yet one G*d. Yeshua the Messiah silenced the Jewish Rabbis when He asked them, "Why do the scribes say that the Messiah is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1; Mark 12:35-36)
Solomon, the wisest man in the world, also recognized two personalities, but one Creator, "Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! " (Prov 30:4) Solomon also used the plural form when speaking of two creators, "Remember now thy Creator (Boreacho = Creators) in the days of thy youth" (Eccl. 12:1)
The prophet Isaiah prophesied "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty G*d, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Is 9:6) Notice that this child is the Son that is given, and He will be called Mighty G*d Himself. Isaiah also mentioned all three members of the Trinity in one sentence, "And now the Sovereign Yahweh has sent me, with his Spirit." (Isa 46:16)
The trinity is really not a hard concept to understand. Everything in the universe is a tri-universe, or a trinity of trinities--(1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one G*d, but three divine personalities. (2) man consists of body, soul, and spirit, but is one being. (3) every unity in the universe consists of space (height x width x depth) x time (past x present x future) x matter (protons x neutrons x electrons). (4) All colors consists of the 3 primary colors--yellow (Father's holiness), red (Messiah's blood), and blue (Spirit's truth), but together they equal 1 white light.
The Tenach is a bloody book. G*d killed an innocent animal to clothe Adam and Eve. He accepted the bloody sacrifice of Abel, but rejected the luscious fruits of Cain. Noah sacrificed innocent animals after he stepped off the ark. Abraham was to offer his son Isaac as a bloody sacrifice on Mount Moriah, the exact spot where Yeshua was crucified. G*d delivered Israel from the Egyptians by the blood of the Passover lamb. The blood of the Lamb is spilt every Passover. Bloody sacrifices were offered daily in the tabernacle and in the temple.
Why do we serve such a bloody G*d? "For the life of the flesh is in the blood. "I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls" (Lev 17:11) On the Day of Atonement, a lamb was sacrificed once a year to cover the sins of Israelfor that year only. Every year the scarlet thread on the temple miraculously turned "white as snow." However, the Talmud records that 40 years before the destruction of the temple, "the scarlet thread no longer turned white." (Yoga 39:b, Talmud) Think about it! Forty years before the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., G*d became a man and offered Himself as the final sacrifice through Yeshua the Messiah. Each of these sacrifices pointed to the final sacrifice. John introduced Yeshua the Messiah as "the lamb of G*d which taketh away the sins of the world." (Jn 1:29).
After studying most of the religions in the world, I have found out that not all religions are the same.NONE of these religious books contain prophecy. ALL promise a trip to heaven by a "good works" standard. ALL attack the messiahship and deity of Yeshua. None of them give special privileges to the Jews. In fact, many of them teach that G*d is finished with the Jews and all Jews should be treated and persecuted as heretics.
Only the Bible declares that the G*d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob stepped into history as a man and He became the Messiah of Israel--Yeshua. This is the only one true real G*d. All others are counterfeits of Satan to keep people's eyes off the Messiah. The Bible teaches that you cannot get into heaven by "good works," but by faith alone in Messiah. (Eph 2:8-9) As a man, He died on the cross to pay for the sins of all mankind just as the sacrificial lamb died for the sins of Israel on the Day of Atonement. All the Passovers, the bloody sacrifices, the feasts, they all pointed to the one true sacrifice--Yeshua the Messiah--the Lamb of the world.
Read the Jewish Book of Matthew in the New Testament. Ask the G*d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to reveal His truth to you. If He really exists, and if He really loves you as one of His chosen people, then He will reveal Himself to you.
May the G*d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Messiah of Israel, bless your life eternally. Shalom!
"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful apart from me. John 15:4 NLT
Edited by - faithwalker on 10 Jan 2003 11:07:40 PM |
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Jim
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2003 : 11:05:48 PM
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That's kind of a tough one for me to answer, because I have met a few Jews who I have a great deal of respect for, and have learned things about Christianity from. The truth is that there are Jews who are very aware of the nature of Yaweh, and understand that salvation is through Messiah. They just aren't convinced that Yashua is Messiah. And I think the biggest hinderence for them are Christians. Truthfully I will just have to let God sort it out. Most Christians, ( myself included), don't understand the Torah descripton of Messiah, and it's importance. So which is worse, the Christian partial view of Messiah, or the Jewish partial view of Messiah?
I must point out though, that the Christian scriptures quote Yashua as saying that no one comes to the Father, (Yahew), expect through Him.
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Ron G
USA
1161 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 04:20:24 AM
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Dear Sven,
In reply to your question-
'i'm jewish. but i've been told by several christians that jews don't get into heaven. what do some of you think? agree or disagree, and why?'
The Lord God is the one who decides who goes to heaven. He is the Judge. Not some MAN who is a Baptist, or Catholic, or Hebrew.
As a Jew, Yahweh made a promise to your decendants, in a covenant.
Has God cancelled that covenant? I think not.
When the Jew prays to Yahweh, is it the same God that Yashua prayed to? Is it the same God that Christians pray to? Yes!
I'm convinced that Yashua is the Messiah. He was Yahweh in the flesh, as a part of Eloim. Therefore He is the judge, the one who decides who will go to heaven. He knows your true heart.
No Christian or anybody else can take away or break the covenant the Jews have with God. It may be at your death that He reveals to you that Yashua is the Messiah, I don't know. But, to answer your question, you are in Covenant with the Lord God, and are not therefore eliminated from going to heaven.
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Edited by - Ron G on 15 Jan 2003 05:37:33 AM |
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centurion
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 5:29:52 PM
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Who is a jew? Many who claim to be be are asking themselves the same question.
Not as simple an answer as most would think -- and it
is a serious and important question.
Futhermore, does the Bible teach that any will be saved except
those who are born again, whether they are Jew, Greek, whatever?
To "i'm jewish": You may benefit from the words of our Lord in
the Gospel of John, Chapter Three, as He discussed your very
question with the noted Jewish lawyer, teacher, and member of
the Sanhedrin, Nocodemus.
Please let us know your impressions and your conclusion. If you
don't have access to a Bible, someone can post the passages.
The words of our Messiah are your answer; not our opinions.
God bless you, friend. It's been awhile since I've been called
a schmuck -- great memories.
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Peggy
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 5:39:49 PM
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Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
This is talking about Yeshua making us all one...no one but Yeshua.
Peggy |
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missy8
USA
201 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2003 : 7:10:44 PM
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Sven, if you believe Jesus is your savior you'll get into heaven, plain and simple.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"~ Phillipians 4:13
"There's gotta be more to life than this, there's gotta be more to everything I thought exists..."~P.O.D. |
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Ron G
USA
1161 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2003 : 03:46:11 AM
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Dear Missy8,
Are you saying that God will not honor His covenant with the decendants of Abraham?
If so, when did He decide to revoke His covenant?
Thanks for the info- Ron G |
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pipinoz
Australia
1482 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 12:07:20 AM
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Hi Ron, brother.
I'm a little confused about your position. Surely not all Jews are saved. Doesn't Paul make it clear that the promise was by faith both to the circumcised and the uncircumcised?
"Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised". (Rom 4:9-12, NIV)
I understand Paul to be saying that the promise was for the children of Abraham by faith, whether circumcised or no.
But I don't necessarily hold that they have to confess faith in Jesus - I'm not sure. I think it is possible for a Jew to be following the faith of Abraham and be included in the covenant promise.
Pip |
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Ron G
USA
1161 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 09:58:57 AM
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Dear sister Pip,
Good to hear from you! Hope all is well down under.
It makes me kind of nervous when Christians like missy8 judge that the Jewish people who are not Christians are just flat destined to go to hell. I just happen to think that since they pray to the same God we do, (Yahweh), and since they are historically a 'chosen' people, that we Christians have no business condeming them. No nation yet who has gone after the Jews has prospered!(spelling? I know!)
I just think it's God's place to make the judgment, for each individual, Jew, gentile, whatever.
But- I'm probably wrong. Missy8 says it's very simple. You either believe in Jesus or you go to hell. That sure is bad news for poor old sven!
What will Yahweh say to sven when he dies? "I know we had a covenant, and I know you believed in Me and worshiped Me, but you did not believe in me in the form of Jesus, so forget the covenant and go to hell!"
Is that how it works?
Always confused, Ron G
(I got a feeling this one will not get posted) |
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RayP
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 1:22:42 PM
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Ron G,
Can you please post were the covenent is that says all Jews will go to heaven?
Thanks,
Ray |
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pipinoz
Australia
1482 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 3:20:56 PM
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Hi brother Ron, how are you going?
It seems I am not in major disagreement with your point. My only question now would be, what constitutes a faithful Jew? The fact that a Jew may involve themselves in a religion which worships Yahweh surely doesn't make them a faithful Jew anymore than going to church makes someone a Christian.
There are many times Yahweh condemns "worship" in the OT which is not from the heart.
Then there is the sticky problem that Jesus seems to say that if one truly knows and worships the Father, he will also recognise and worship Jesus.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. (John 8:42, NIV)
So just being Jewish didn't make these guys faithful.
The promise stands, but it rests on faith, from Abraham on:
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Gen 15:6, NIV)
And regarding Jesus,
Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” John 8:56, NIV
So, a Jew can still be saved because of the promise, but it will still be by faith in Yahweh, which will eventually lead to faith in Jesus (although this may be not realised consciously, due to misinformation or ignorance of Jesus).
Pip |
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missy8
USA
201 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 3:25:29 PM
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Well going by the Word of God a person must believe Jesus is his/her savior to go to heaven...I don't have any knowledge about the covenant of the Jews. I'd like to learn also.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"~ Phillipians 4:13
"There's gotta be more to life than this, there's gotta be more to everything I thought exists..."~P.O.D. |
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TB
USA
449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 7:28:04 PM
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Rom 11 talks about the salvation of the Jews. Verse 5 says there's a remnant chosen by grace. This remnant sounds suspiciously like the same people (or type of people) in Rev 7:4 - 8. Are they? I don't know. 
Anyway, going on in Rom 11, it seems pretty clear that anyone not coming in faith is cut off of the vine. The vine is definitely Jesus (John 15).
Verse 25 & 26 says that blindness (in part) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles are brought in. This would explain why Jews now(in general) don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah - blindness. They cannot see Him. Same thing with unbelievers as spoken of in 2 Cor 4:4. But then there's the statement - And all Israel shall be saved. But saved how? 27 refers to a covenant, which is the same covenant for every believer today - He will take away their sins.
So the Lord isn't going some other way to save Israel - it's the same way, the same vine. Verse 31 - Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
What is the mercy given to the Gentiles? Grace through the sacrifice of Jesus.
Finally, what Jesus said about how you get to the Father:
John 14:6
And Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. |
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Faithwalker
USA
777 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 9:55:29 PM
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I take it that Sven the Jew was fearful of the responses to follow, fearful to face the revelation as given by God and swept under the carpet by the Jewish Tradition.
"In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
Proverbs 3:6 |
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centurion
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2003 : 11:23:55 PM
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ONE gospel, ONE Savior, ONE Lord, and His Name is Jesus Christ!
And He said, "No one comes to the Father except by Me."
The sons of Abraham today are called Christians, having nothing to
do with their ethnicity, national origin, natural blood lines, condition of body parts, or family tradition.
It is only by grace through faith (in Him, whose Name is Jesus)
that we are saved, by His substitutionary death on the cross,
washed in His precious blood, cleansed of our sins, so that we
might repent and be baptized, to rule and reign with Him forever!
We are the remnant, joined in covenant with all who have gone be-
fore us, and who cheer us on today from the heavenlies. (Heb.10-13)
That is the GOOD NEWS! As Jesus told the Jewish leader, Nicodemus,
we must be born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven; and there is
only one other eternal destiny: hellfire and brimstone in the lake
of fire, a minute at a time, FOREVER.
Praise the Lord for His mercy on those He has chosen to abide with
Him for the rest of our days, here and in heaven. None of us
deserves His special, redemptive favor, no not one, regardless
of our works, our religiosity, or our intellects.
Sven, I am praying for your salvation, "ya crazy schmuck." I would
like to party with you in heaven as we worship the King of Kings,
the Messiah Who has already come to redeem us! Surrender, my friend. |
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i'm jewish
