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Felipe Limon
USA
574 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 10:26:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eva
Hi Felipe,
quote:
Keeping the law is works.
Where is this defined in the Bible? And how do you equate your defination of works to:
quote:
Works without faith is nothing, and faith without works is dead;
I have been led by the Holy Spirit to do many works since I have been reborn spiritually, but none of them are relating to the law. The works that the Holy Spirit has led me to do is to pray, love, heal, show kindness, forgive, help, teach, pray, cook , listen to someone who is down or lonely...and the more I do in faith, the more I grow in faith.
In Christ...eva
Hi.
You sound like a beautiful woman Eva.
Lets start here, and look at this.
First let me say that CHRISTS' people are given grace.
I live in America. America doesn't establish itself based on what GOD says, therefore to be a part of America CHRISTS' people will need grace to even have a chance. Some things a person may not be able to do, and example is: The Bible tells GODS people to do no work on the sabbath. Now, America is so against GOD that you have many businesses that make employees work on Saturday. CHRIST knew his people would live in societies that don't keep his word, so a person that has to work on saturday is covered under grace until they can get to a position where they can take that day off.
Now, a child of GOD at work; it's 12:00 noon, and they are hungry. They go across the street to a restaurant and look at the menu, hmmm they say; " what do I want ". There's no reason for that child of GOD to order a ham sandwhich; none whatsoever, because they don't have to order that when they can just order the turkey sandwhich. So grace doesn't cover that.
Now, look: You mentioned the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is having the true understanding of the Bible ( because without the Holy Spirit people just talk opinion ), the Holy Spirit is from GOD, perfect. You said the Holy Spirit led you, o.k. Proverbs.28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be an abomination. You said the Holy Spirit led you to pray. Prayer is in GOD'S WORD, but if a child of GOD didn't listen to the law to learn what they can and can't do, then their prayer is an abomination.
You mentioned love. 2nd John.1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments, this is the commandment, That as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
As ye heard in the beginning? When Moses gave GOD'S children the law, and they are still supposed to be walking in it. So if a person thinks they are a child of GOD, what excuse have they to not keep GOD'S law?
Luke.10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26) He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest thou?Whoa, now check that out. JESUS told that guy, you wanna know what to do? How well can you read? what is written in the law?
I know knowledge is heavy, but it's profitable to GOD'S people to obtain it.
So, I have alot more to say, but I'LL be back... Thank you. |
Edited by - Felipe Limon on 05 Nov 2004 12:02:52 PM |
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Felipe Limon
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 11:24:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eva
Hi Felipe,
quote:
Keeping the law is works.
Where is this defined in the Bible? And how do you equate your defination of works to:
quote:
Works without faith is nothing, and faith without works is dead;
O.K. I'LL try to answer this question, but also I'M going to study and get the correct precepts then I'LL come back to your question.
Also, I meant to say keeping the law is good works.
The Pharisees were doing the law, they were hypocrites, but they knew the law. They didn't have faith in CHRIST. So, just doing the law without faith is not right. The Bible says that a child of GOD is not justified by works, they're justified by their belief in CHRIST shedding blood, dying on the cross for his people. They're justified by their faith.
But:
James.2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
There has to be something that comes along with faith.
GOD outlined the things that were good, for us to do, actually things that he commanded us to do, in his book, called the Bible; so why would we not do them? what? You going to establish your own idea of goodness?
Romans.10:3 For they being ignorant of GOD'S righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of GOD.
GOD'S people are not being taught to keep the laws written in GOD'S word; so they are running around doing what " THEY " think is right.
That's no way to live. |
Edited by - Felipe Limon on 05 Nov 2004 12:08:58 PM |
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Felipe Limon
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 11:49:05 AM
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1st John.5:3For this is the love of GOD, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
St.John.14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
St.John.5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
Leviticus.11:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, and to Aaron, saying unto them, - 47) read about the dietary law.
So, CHRIST is the one who gave Moses the law to give to his people, the Israelites. If a child of GOD loves CHRIST, then keep his commandments. The law of Moses is what CHRIST wants us to keep. |
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Felipe Limon
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 11:58:53 AM
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Boullan is a nice guy, and intelligent.
But Boullan, I am not sure if what your saying is astrology or what?
Deuteronomy.18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or any observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
So, children of GOD are not supposed to be dealing with any divination.
Now, I'M just asking because I don't know if that's what your talking about.
peace. |
Edited by - Felipe Limon on 05 Nov 2004 12:04:35 PM |
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Felipe Limon
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 3:13:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eva
1:6 and He has made us to be a kings, priests to His (Jesus) God and Father (Yahweh)
Wow...look who we are in Christ!!! Again, Jesus refers to to Yahweh as His God and Father.
Amen!!!
I look forward to reading your insights, corrections and thoughts.
In Christ...Eva
CHRIST didn't call the FATHER Yahweh. CHRIST himself is YHWH.
Yahweh is not Lashawan Qadash.
Later,. |
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 8:41:28 PM
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To Felipe Limon,
You have raised several questions but I do not know exactly they fit
into this discussion. Let me say this further about the Law.
In the passage you quoted, Jesus is talking to a lawyer, meaning someone trained in the law of Moses. In other words, he was talking
to a Jew. Since the Jews took the vow at Sinai and since that vow
was binding on both them and their children, Jesus told this lawyer
to keep the commandments given to Israel through Moses. Elsewhere
also, Jesus consistently told the Jews that they were to keep the
Law and to OBEY those who sat in the seat of Moses: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (From Matthew 23.) Thus, we learn here
that Jesus believed that the rulings of the Sanhedrin were binding
on Jews. How can a Jew know how to keep the Law? There is the
law against eating milk and meat together. What does this mean in
practice? Does it mean we can eat a steak dinner and then follow it
with a piece pie and a glass of milk? Would that be eating them
together? How about if we eat the steak now and want the pie and
milk in an hour? Two hours? Four hours? Six? The matter is not
as simple as it first appears; so the judges of Israel and especially
the Sanhedrin acted as interpreters of the Law.
Now, we see that where Jesus consistently tells the Jews to keep the
commandments, he also consistently never tells any Gentiles this.
I can think of no place in the Gospels where Jesus attempts to convert
any Gentiles to Judaism or their practices.
When the early Church began to have Gentile converts, the debate
began: Should these Gentile converts convert to Judaism and keep
the Laws of Moses or not?
The answer is given three times in Acts; but I quote only one which
follows a discussion about circumcision:
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
This list is very similar to the list of the seven commandments
given to all mankind, called by the Jews the Noahic Covenant.
All humanity is subject to these seven laws since they were given
to all humanity.
Paul also tells us that the covenant of circumcision given to
Abraham and repeated by Moses is not required for Gentiles:
Galations 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
He also says that anyone ritually circumcised is bound to keep all
the Law.
Thus, both Jesus and Paul agree with the Torah that Israel is bound
by the Law of Moses while the Gentiles are not.
Boullan
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 8:54:47 PM
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To Felipe Limon,
No, I would not call my remarks here "divination." I have studied
astrology and could easily enough use it for divination purposes;
but as I explained earlier, I find that of no use.
Instead, I study such things to try to understand the patterns of
all creation.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
What is called here in Genesis, sun, moon and stars are the seven
"stars" of Revelation. In the pagan terms, these are sun, moon,
mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn.
There is the proper study and the improper study. Would you call the
four cherubim of lion, calf, man and eagle "astrology"? Well, maybe
and maybe not. They surely do show up in our sky as constellations in the fixed signs of the zodiac.
Later when we get to 666, some might call this counting of numbers
a form of numerology. I would hope not, however.
Boullan
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Edited by - boullan on 01 Nov 2009 1:26:09 PM |
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freethinker
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 11:11:51 PM
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Hello Boullan,
>>>Jesus consistently told the Jews that they were to keep the
Law and to OBEY those who sat in the seat of Moses: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (From Matthew 23.) Thus, we learn here
that Jesus believed that the rulings of the Sanhedrin were binding
on Jews.<<<
I thaught that the Sanhedrin consisted of Sadducees. The Pharisees were the ones who were Zealous for God's law. Were there Pharisees on the Sanhedrin also?
>>>Thus, both Jesus and Paul agree with the Torah that Israel is bound by the Law of Moses while the Gentiles are not.<<<
The problem I see with the above is while this sounds good I have some doubts where the rubber meets the road. How many Jews do you know who converted to Christianity say 2 generations ago who still observe the law of Moses? It seems like they get swallowed up in the Christian umbrella. In other words unless Christainity begins keeping at least part of the law, no Christian Jews will keep it. If a Jew wants to forsake his heritage in fovor of Christianity I'm fine with that but it seems like Christianity is pushing him away from it.
MT 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in
the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the
same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Republicans - The Republican congress's decision to leave Tom Delay as the party whip indicates they consider him to be their moral guide. |
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 12:33:47 AM
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To Freethinker,
You may be interested to read some of the history of how the
Sanhedrin was once composed of all Sadducees except for one Simon
who managed to get them all removed and replaced by Pharisees.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=768&letter=S
As a group, the Sadducees were unpopular, being elistist and impious, being inclined to seeking money and power. You can read about the
decline of their influence:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=40&letter=S
They appear doomed after the rise of the tannaim or teachers, which
began about 10 B.C.E.
The conflict between Sadducee and Pharisee became so extreme, that
one nominee to the High Priesthood was forced to swear that he was
not a Sadducee before the Sanhedrin would confirm his appointment
by Rome. I believe this was Caiphas; but don't quote me on that.
As for Matthew 5, here is the relevant passage:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus was speaking to his followers on the mountain top. They were
Jews. How can I be sure? Well, he tells them something:
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Here, he says FEW will find the way.... But the very same day, he
seems to contradict himself. He comes down from the mountain top
and meets a Roman centurion in Capernaum. The man has such faith
in God, Jesus commends him:
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Does this clarify in your mind how Jesus adapted his words to his audience?
As for those Jews who are assimilated, I cannot answer for their
consciences. I am not answering for Christianity in practice, either.
Paul waited for a sabbath to be over before he began a journey:
Ac 20:7 - And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
This would have been our Saturday evening. We see him entering the
synagogues also on the sabbath. It appears to me he kept the sabbath.
Yet he advised his converts:
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
This may be more information that you wanted; but I think it important
to see that Gentiles were never expected to keep the Law of Moses,
not under Moses and not within the Christian Gentile Church. Indeed,
I do not see how Gentiles could keep all the Law, since the eating of
the Passover lamb is forbidden to them.
Boullan
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Edited by - boullan on 06 Nov 2004 12:36:08 AM |
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freethinker
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 12:22:15 PM
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hello boullan
>>>This may be more information that you wanted; but I think it important to see that Gentiles were never expected to keep the Law of Moses, not under Moses and not within the Christian Gentile Church. Indeed, I do not see how Gentiles could keep all the Law, since the eating of the Passover lamb is forbidden to them.<<<
I agree, however, at the time when A Jew converted to Christianity it was more likely he would remain among Jews and therefore not be under any pressure to neglect any laws. I also of course didn't mean to imply that anyone could keep all of the laws.
Republicans - The Republican congress's decision to leave Tom Delay as the party whip indicates they consider him to be their moral guide. |
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Felipe Limon
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 1:21:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by boullan
To Felipe Limon,
No, I would not call my remarks here "divination." I have studied
astrology and could easily enough use it for divination purposes;
but as I explained earlier, I find that of no use.
Instead, I study such things to try to understand the patterns of
all creation.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
What is called here in Genesis, sun, moon and stars are the seven
"stars" of Revelation. In the pagan terms, these are sun, moon,
mercury, venus, mars, jupiter and saturn.
There is the proper study and the improper study. Would you call the
four cherubim of lion, calf, man and eagle "astrology"? Well, maybe
and maybe not. They surely do show up in our sky as constellations in the fixed signs of the zodiac.
Later when we get to 666, some might call this counting of numbers
a form of numerology. I would hope not, however.
Boullan
Boullan
I know that the break down and understanding of what 666 means is not numerology divination. And I know that understanding patterns is wisdom; such as 12. 12 is the righteous vibration number of Israel.
We have 12 months, 12 tribes, 12 Apostles, 12 zodiac signs, etc.
I see what you're saying, but Revelation is no easy read; it's very serious, and has a very deep meaning.
Later. |
Edited by - Felipe Limon on 06 Nov 2004 1:22:55 PM |
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Felipe Limon
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 1:28:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by boullan
To Freethinker,
You may be interested to read some of the history of how the
Sanhedrin was once composed of all Sadducees except for one Simon
who managed to get them all removed and replaced by Pharisees.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=768&letter=S
As a group, the Sadducees were unpopular, being elistist and impious, being inclined to seeking money and power. You can read about the
decline of their influence:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=40&letter=S
They appear doomed after the rise of the tannaim or teachers, which
began about 10 B.C.E.
The conflict between Sadducee and Pharisee became so extreme, that
one nominee to the High Priesthood was forced to swear that he was
not a Sadducee before the Sanhedrin would confirm his appointment
by Rome. I believe this was Caiphas; but don't quote me on that.
As for Matthew 5, here is the relevant passage:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus was speaking to his followers on the mountain top. They were
Jews. How can I be sure? Well, he tells them something:
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Here, he says FEW will find the way.... But the very same day, he
seems to contradict himself. He comes down from the mountain top
and meets a Roman centurion in Capernaum. The man has such faith
in God, Jesus commends him:
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Does this clarify in your mind how Jesus adapted his words to his audience?
As for those Jews who are assimilated, I cannot answer for their
consciences. I am not answering for Christianity in practice, either.
Paul waited for a sabbath to be over before he began a journey:
Ac 20:7 - And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
This would have been our Saturday evening. We see him entering the
synagogues also on the sabbath. It appears to me he kept the sabbath.
Yet he advised his converts:
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
This may be more information that you wanted; but I think it important
to see that Gentiles were never expected to keep the Law of Moses,
not under Moses and not within the Christian Gentile Church. Indeed,
I do not see how Gentiles could keep all the Law, since the eating of
the Passover lamb is forbidden to them.
Boullan
I know this wasn't directed to me Boullan, but I would like to debate with you this topic a little further. I don't have much time now so I'LL get back to it later.
Romans.11:9 - 27
This is saying that when Israel fell, the other nations got rich ( they claim all types of things that real Israel did ), and GOD let the gentiles rule to make the real Israel jealous. If Israel was punished for not obeying, then imagine how bad the gentiles will be punished.
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Edited by - Felipe Limon on 06 Nov 2004 1:32:13 PM |
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eva
USA
3233 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 10:15:09 PM
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Hi boullan,
Thank you so much for taking the lead again. I read your post the other day and have been pondering on the verses and what you have said.
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
quote:
There is almost something "mechanical" implied about being "dead" in my mind. The promise, later, to those in this church is that they will not be "hurt of the second death." It is not said they will not die the second death but that they will not be hurt by it.
Yes you are right. It does not say that they will not die the second death in this verse, just that they won't be hurt by it. Other verses in Revelation describe a second death for the unbelievers:
Re 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Re 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Does this mean believers will not partake in a 2nd death at all? It singles out for whom the 2nd death of the lake of fire is. Beyond that, I do not know; just that it will not have any power over me.
quote:
The guilt-ridden conscience knows it does not deserve to live, that is one point.
It is good to have that guilt taken away, wouldn't you agree?
quote:
The second is that the process of what happened to those
who died was not entirely understood. How could it be? Those who
experienced it died and could not report. In the middle of the
experience, they knew it was just that they die and they succumbed.
It was necessary then, from my way of thinking, that someone with a
pure conscience descend into this state, penetrating the very atoms
and molecules of both body and soul during the process of death.
Understanding what happened during this process granted Jesus the
power to alter it. He then can alter it for others. While it remains
true that any flaws will surely be extinguished by this second death,
that which is not flawed may be raised up.
Yes. I agree. Jesus overcame death and was given the power to alter it. Your statement on the flaws that will be found reminded me of the of the verse:
1Co 3:15
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
quote:
This church is indeed both rich and poor. It is rich in worldly things but spiritually poor. Being governed by the expansive Jupiter, this Church is intended to grow and to expand spiritually.
This involves giving up the attachments to material things.
Or is it rich spiritually and poor in worldly things?
quote:
The concept of the "elect" is addressed here. There are various
sorts of the elect. First, we have the 144,000 who accompany the
Ancient of Days. Then, we've those of Israel who were added on and
who may be pruned off. Thirdly, we've the Gentiles, never born physically into Israel, but grafted on spiritually.
Interesting. I realized there were two groups, but not three. Of course that came from my initial assumption that the Ancient of Days was another name for Yahweh.
quote:
The Ancient of Days will not leave with one of his being lost. There
are no guarantees from Him for anyone else. I cannot tell anyone wher
these 144,000 are. Indeed, some are born into Israel, the physical
expression of Israel the spiritual man; but some have been born as
Gentiles too in order to affect the flow of history, to spread the
idea of One God to other peoples. Indeed, they have been both priests and kings in a very real sense from time to time.
Those who claim to have been the elect from the foundation of the
earth, fore-ordained to salvation, very often are succumbing to mere
vanity--the belief that God has favorites and they are one of His
favorites. It is not so. This is spiritual pride.
Nor has Israel been replaced by the "Christian church." The covenant
with Israel remains in effect; and all of Israel (the true Israel) shall be saved, as Paul tells us. The Jews, in physical form, are
one manifestation of "all Israel" and they remain for a good reason:
To preserve the message of the One True God.
There is no "replacement" then. The volunteers who came with the
Ancient of Days deserve their places; they have earned their rewards.
Those who have been added on, some centuries ago as at Sinai, also
have earned their rewards. All of God's covenants with men STAND
and remain VALID. To think otherwise is to conceive of God as
contracting imperfect covenants. This is satanic thinking.
It is also satanic thinking to permit one's self to be inspired by
pride, claiming to be a Jew when one is not. Such a claim is immodest and flies in the face of God's purposes here on earth anyway.
The saints who came, whose names were in the book of life from the
foundation of the earth age, did so so that all might come to God,
so that all might be equally free and joyous. Their motives are
pure. Those who see the elect as a "special group" of "superior
beings" have missed the mark. They came and come, as Jesus did,
so we might be like them and him.
I see you read the Bible on this the same way I do...just as it says, not adding or subtracting anything. I have been grafted in...I have not replaced anyone. It is surprising to me that some believe that they Yahweh will not keep His everlasting convenant with Israel and that Christians have replaced Israel. There is a purpose for both. I agree with everything you have said on this matter. The Bible says that you will know them by their fruit. And as most often is the case with those who believe they have replaced Israel and "those who claim to have been the elect from the foundation of the earth, fore-ordained to salvation, very often are succumbing to mere
vanity--the belief that God has favorites and they are one of His
favorites." - thier fruit is seen by both unbelievers and believers as arrogance and spiritual pride.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
What is the ten days? There is only one other place in the Bible where ten days has any significance; when Daniel and his three Jewish friends offered to undergo ten days on a diet of only pulse and water. This seemed like a sacrifice or "tribulation" to those who were watching; but it was a period of proving (Daniel 1:14) which produce great results. I don't know if there is a significant correlation here, but it does seem to have some relevance.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
quote:
No doctrine then of God's playing favorites is going to save us. We must repent of our sins daily as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us.
It still amazes me when the Holy Spirit reveals things about me that I need to change, that I am not "aware" of. I have a way of fooling myself; yet when I bare myself before God, He will revel ways to improve. And yes, it is necessary to do this as often as required; sometimes daily, sometimes several times a day for me, depending on how much of the world I let in. But when I go for several days without His guidance, I feel my spiritual strength weakening.
quote:
This is an opportunity not to be missed. Even God's elect follow the same pattern. They also fell, so they might experience
life on earth, understand it and triumph over it--thus their experiences could teach them how to help others. The non-elect can
do the same.
This is an interesting perspective. From where, how and when do you think the elect fell?
quote:
Perfection is possible then if we follow the daily correction givento us. The angels will surround us and offer us daily comfort if
we do not fall into spiritual pride.
Yes.
quote:
Sooner or later, we all must face this dreadful monster of spiritual pride.
It is a difficult battle and a fine line. There is a combination or joining of the lion and the lamb that we must maintain within us. That combination has to be in balance.
quote:
Surely, it appears after we realize that God loves us. We then may wonder if He does not love others--"Why us," we might ask. If we answer wrongly, we enter into the synagogue of Satan. If we answer rightly, we face the trial of ten days, as "the devil" afflicts us with such ideas as we are better than other people.
And yet, the answer for me, is that I am not any better than the murderer on death row, which I why I do need Jesus.
quote:
Ten is the number of the manifestations of lights, there being ten lights or centers in the "Tree of Life." There are ten ways of failing at this point. If we've pride in any of the ten manifestations, we've failed. (Thus, we also have ten fingers and ten toes to relate to the physical world with.)
ahhh...I see your explanation now of the 10 days. What do you think the ten ways of failing at this point are?
quote:
To those who overcome, the Tree of Life is stabilized; and though we must face the second death, it can be faced with the certainty that only those remaining imperfections shall be lost.
And I will be glad to be rid of them.
In Christ...Eva
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boullan
USA
10894 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 03:13:44 AM
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To Eva,
It is my own belief that eventually we must all die the second death.
After all, "the soul that sins will die." For those who have
accepted God's terms, they die and then are raised up incorruptible.
So Paul talks about things being sown in the mortal. Well, "mortal"
means it can die; and both body and soul can die, as Jesus indicated
when he said we should fear God who destroy body and soul.
For me then, the First Judgment occurs for each saint as he exits
time for eternity, the body and soul dying, but then being raised up.
To us, this looks as if these events spread out over time, but for
each saint it is the end of time.
On the day when heaven descends to earth, we see that "time" ceases
in a way. No further time exists for people to repent. The heavens
and earth are consumed by a great fire; and only the gold and pure
remain. 1Co 3:15 - If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. This mirrows what is said in Revelation also: That some
go through this fire and survive but remain less than complete.
They have lost their incorrect or sinful body members; but they are
not whole. Some people may not survive this fire. The topic comes
up again when we see some people thrown into the lake of fire; but
then later, we see them outside the City of God. Yes, they may enter
into the kingdom but in a raggedy sort of way. Jesus warned of this
also, that it is possible to enter the kingdom blind or lame.
Indeed, this very topic will come up sooner than that, when we are
commanded to purchase refined gold and to annoint our eyes: It is
possible to separate the gold from the clay now. The new spiritual
body can be built today.
You are right, the passage could be read "rich spiritually and poor in worldly things." The passage is almost deliberately vague.
quote:
It still amazes me when the Holy Spirit reveals things about me that I need to change, that I am not "aware" of. I have a way of fooling myself; yet when I bare myself before God, He will revel ways to improve. And yes, it is necessary to do this as often as required; sometimes daily, sometimes several times a day for me, depending on how much of the world I let in. But when I go for several days without His guidance, I feel my spiritual strength weakening.
Yes, and it has nothing to do with feeling guilty or condemned.
I liked the line you wrote that it is good to have such things removed
from us. There is such confusion, I think, about this in many
quarters; but I do not think that the guidance of the Holy Spirit
ever is one of making us feel condemned or worthless. That spirit
is the satanic spirit to me. The Holy Spirit wishes us to improve
and shows us ways to do it. Sin is injury, is it not, so when we
are shown our sins, we are being shown ways we injure ourselves and
those around us. If we injure those around us, we must also be
injuring ourselves by creating unpleasantness all around.
Who cares about the past if we have learned from it and know the
future can be better? This is the power of forgiveness, that our
bad experiences can be turned into profitable knowledge: The future
can be better than the past by avoiding those mistakes or sins.
The falling of the elect is a delicate issue. By all means, we ought
never to accuse the elect of anything. Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
The Talmud says that God laughed when He saw what Eve was doing.
I don't know if I can explain it any better than that. I don't take
the statement totally seriously, however. To affect change on the
world, it was necessary for the elect to come into the world.
Here, they faced challenges of evil and were overwhelmed. They knew
this would happen; and at Mount Sinai, they took the vow anyway.
Their future fall into idolatry and future punishment was predicted.
But to accomplish the purpose of salvation for all mankind, they had
to take such risks.
I see the elect (those coming with the Ancient of Days, especially)
with similar roles to Jesus. By experiencing things, they gained
knowledge how things could be fixed. The world, without this knowledge, lacked hope because it had fallen into total darkness.
I can compare it to a plague in a place where everyone is ill.
If you send doctors and nurses, some of them will become infected.
Who gets treated first? Well, you'd better keep the doctors and
nurses healthy first of all or everyone else is going to die.
The fall of the elect is not quite the same as the fall of the
non-elect. Those elect ones, whose names have been in the Book of
Life from the foundation of the world-age, were already spiritually
perfect beings who descended to earth for the same {similar}
reason Jesus came. (Edited for meaning.)
His major role was not to save the world but to restore the elect to
their senses. Thus, he said that he came to the "lost sheep of
Israel." It is written too that he came so that the world MIGHT be
saved. Thus, in his prayer in the Gospel of John, he says that he
does not pray for the world but for those the Father gave him.
In they could be restored to spiritual awakeness, then the world
could be saved by their efforts on earth and by Jesus in heaven.
I am glad you mentioned the ten days of Daniel--it is surely relevant.
The ten errors I would say are the reverse of the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5:12.) Jesus gives only nine there; but the tenth is the establishment of the kingdom. I can guess.... I don't guarantee
this is right.
1. Arrogance or pride in the spirit.
2. Indifference to suffering.
3. Presumption.
4. Wrong lusts and cravings.
5. Lack of mercy, wanting strict justice.
6. Impurity of the heart.
7. Troublemaking.
8. Fear of physical consequences.
9. Craving the opinions of fallen men.
10. Wrong actions, the result of the previous nine.
Boullan
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
--Alexander Pope, Essay on Criticism |
Edited by - boullan on 07 Nov 2004 11:47:10 AM |
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eva
USA
3233 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 07:33:31 AM
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Hi boullan,
quote:
It is my own belief that eventually we must all die the second death. After all, "the soul that sins will die." For those who have
accepted God's terms, they die and then are raised up incorruptible.
So Paul talks about things being sown in the mortal. Well, "mortal"
means it can die; and both body and soul can die, as Jesus indicated
when he said we should fear God who destroy body and soul.
For me then, the First Judgment occurs for each saint as he exits
time for eternity, the body and soul dying, but then being raised up.
To us, this looks as if these events spread out over time, but for
each saint it is the end of time
While many christians today think that they will not partake in a judgement, I agree with you. We will all be judged.
quote:
On the day when heaven descends to earth, we see that "time" ceases in a way. No further time exists for people to repent.
Yes. So while many people few eternity as a very long time, which is understandable in a sense, it is actually "no time", which is more difficult for us to comprehend. However, there have been a few times when I have experienced a time, when there was no time. I think many of us have, and it is often referred to as a moment when time stood still.
quote:
Indeed, this very topic will come up sooner than that, when we are commanded to purchase refined gold and to annoint our eyes: It is
possible to separate the gold from the clay now. The new spiritual
body can be built today.
Many people loose the importance of what you have just said. But we can begin living our spiritual eternity while we are on earth. We do not have to wait until we physically die to enter into the kingdom.
quote:
You are right, the passage could be read "rich spiritually and poor in worldly things." The passage is almost deliberately vague.
And maybe intentionally so - because both makes sense. Because while it is not impossible for one who is wealthy to enter the kingdom, if they become consumed with the material things of this world, it is highly unlikely they will focus on their spiritual growth.
quote:
Yes, and it has nothing to do with feeling guilty or condemned.
There is no guilt or condemnation when I am in the spirit.
quote:
[There is such confusion, I think, about this in many
quarters; but I do not think that the guidance of the Holy Spirit
ever is one of making us feel condemned or worthless. That spirit
is the satanic spirit to me. The Holy Spirit wishes us to improve
and shows us ways to do it. Sin is injury, is it not, so when we
are shown our sins, we are being shown ways we injure ourselves and
those around us. If we injure those around us, we must also be
injuring ourselves by creating unpleasantness all around.
I think the spirit of guilt is a powerful spirit that is used to keep us from seeking the presence of God. And it has to be overcome quickly - because then we can be spiritually healed and learn how to improve. Yes...satan would have us guiltridden so we would think we are not worthy to seek God. God would have us see that He has a way of healing - in love, without any condemnation, if we come and ask.
quote:
Who cares about the past if we have learned from it and know the future can be better? This is the power of forgiveness, that our
bad experiences can be turned into profitable knowledge: The future
can be better than the past by avoiding those mistakes or sins.
As long as we learn from our mistakes, they are not really mistakes are they? It is when we do not learn from our mistakes and do not go back and correct them that they become stumbling blocks in our journey. The spirit of unforgiveness is another powerful spirit that can hinder one's growth. Many become bitter and stuck in the time they were wrong because they have not forgiven the transgression done to them. People live and relive in their mind, something wrong that was done to them. Forgiveness has a healing power.
quote:
I see the elect (those coming with the Ancient of Days, especially)with similar roles to Jesus. By experiencing things, they gained knowledge how things could be fixed. The world, without this knowledge, lacked hope because it had fallen into total darkness.
Yes...there have been those throughout time that with hindsight, you can clearly see were truly elected for a purpose.
quote:
The fall of the elect is not quite the same as the fall of the
non-elect. Those elect ones, whose names have been in the Book of
Life from the foundation of the world-age, were already spiritually
perfect beings who descended to earth for the same reason Jesus came.
Your explanation of the Book of Life makes sense. It does not make sense to me that all who come to Christ are written in the Book of Life, because then how do they get there? Some say it happens when you get baptized, some say when you accept Christ, etc...but I do not think this makes sense in the context of the rest of the Bible, but rather leads to other doctrine to explain it.
The point I disagree with you on is where you say that there were others who came for the same reason as Jesus. I believe that there were similar reasons, but not the same. But maybe that is going to have to be one of those areas we agree to disagree.
quote:
His major role was not to save the world but to restore the elect to their senses.
I see his major role as overcoming the power of death, for those that were is.
quote:
Thus, he said that he came to the "lost sheep of Israel." It is written too that he came so that the world MIGHT be
saved. Thus, in his prayer in the Gospel of John, he says that he
does not pray for the world but for those the Father gave him.
In they could be restored to spiritual awakeness, then the world
could be saved by their efforts on earth and by Jesus in heaven.
I will have to ponder on this a bit. While I see and agree with what you are saying, because it is biblical, there is something that I can't place my finger on that keeps me from agreeing with it totally. I think it is the part where the world could be saved by the efforts of the elect, but then you do add and by Jesus. I will meditate on this.
In Christ...Eva |
Edited by - eva on 07 Nov 2004 08:44:09 AM |
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Revelation
