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honeybadger
USA
542 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2003 : 12:59:41 PM
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| as i'm taking a class in greek mythology this summer i came across a story called "deucilion's flood" and guess what? it's basically the same as "noah's ark" including specific details such as the dove and the branch, you know why? because hundreds of stories in jewish mythology (what's in the OT) was copied from the greeks or the babylonians or the persians etc. everybody copied everybody else. for example the jews didn't believe in satan, hell, angels etc. until the persians took over and spread their beliefs around. it's amazing to see how similar the greek myths are to stories in the bible. i can't understand how it's not obvious that the bible is historical mythology, this doesn't mean that there's no truth to it, myths are more than plain stories, but how could one group of people have the divine truth when so many other groups came so darn close? think about it, the bible tells us tons of history about ancient cultures that we might not know otherwise, much of it is true historical events...same with the greek myths. for example one of the most famous stories, the story of the trojan war was a real war that actually happened, the characters Achilles, Helen, Agamemnon etc. were real people. you can go to greece today and visit the tomb of agamemnon, now whether or not he did everything and said everything that the iliad quotes him saying is doubtful and most likely quite exaggerated (we don't read the iliad as pure fact like some of you read the bible) especially all the supernatural stuff, but the basic story of his life may well be true, there is probably more "proof" of the existence of the greek gods than of the truth of christianity, so why believe the mythology of one culture but not another? i don't get it. what do you guys think? |
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Evangelist
USA
787 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2003 : 8:59:01 PM
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honeybadger,
"as i'm taking a class in greek mythology this summer i came across a story called "deucilion's flood" and guess what? it's basically the same as "noah's ark" including specific details such as the dove and the branch, you know why?"
Yes, because the flood actually happened, and other cultures would have some kind of record of it.
"because hundreds of stories in jewish mythology (what's in the OT) was copied from the greeks or the babylonians or the persians etc. everybody copied everybody else."
How do you know that the greeks, babylonians, and the persians did not copy the stories contained in the Old Testament?
"for example the jews didn't believe in satan, hell, angels etc. until the persians took over and spread their beliefs around."
How do you know this? The book of Genesis records satan and angels in it's earliest chapters.
"it's amazing to see how similar the greek myths are to stories in the bible. i can't understand how it's not obvious that the bible is historical mythology,"
It is only obvious to you because you are looking to explain away the Bible. What the Bible teaches and mythology teachings are two seperate things.
"this doesn't mean that there's no truth to it, myths are more than plain stories, but how could one group of people have the divine truth when so many other groups came so darn close?"
It is called "copycats".
"you can go to greece today and visit the tomb of agamemnon, now whether or not he did everything and said everything that the iliad quotes him saying is doubtful and most likely quite exaggerated (we don't read the iliad as pure fact like some of you read the bible) especially all the supernatural stuff, but the basic story of his life may well be true, there is probably more "proof" of the existence of the greek gods than of the truth of christianity, so why believe the mythology of one culture but not another? i don't get it. what do you guys think?"
Because you can't see the forest for the trees. If you take the Bible as a whole, from cover to cover, it makes perfect sense.
Evangelist Mike |
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honeybadger
USA
542 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2003 : 11:30:57 PM
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Yes, because the flood actually happened, and other cultures would have some kind of record of it.
so maybe there was a big flood, that's not the same as a flood that wipes out the entire human population, there is a difference you know, besides how could anyone record a flood if they were drowned in it?
How do you know that the greeks, babylonians, and the persians did not copy the stories contained in the Old Testament?
because the greek myths were written before the OT was so unless you're implying the jews went back in time...? and i'm sure other cultures have borrowed stories from the bible, so what? i'm not claiming that greek mythology is divine truth, the greeks didn't even claim it was divine truth, they had no sacred text
"for example the jews didn't believe in satan, hell, angels etc. until the persians took over and spread their beliefs around."
How do you know this?
an educational text from my biblical literature class last semester
The book of Genesis records satan and angels in it's earliest chapters.
personally i don't remember any references to these things in genesis but i'm sure you've read it more recently than me, and besides the bible was not written in chronological order, genesis may have been the last section to be written for all we know
It is only obvious to you because you are looking to explain away the Bible. What the Bible teaches and mythology teachings are two seperate things.
it's obvious to anyone with both texts and half a brain, and how are biblical teachings different from mythological ones? it's all mythology
"this doesn't mean that there's no truth to it, myths are more than plain stories, but how could one group of people have the divine truth when so many other groups came so darn close?"
It is called "copycats".
yes, but my point is how can you say only christians go to heaven when other cultuires believed practically the same thing? if they believed the same things why doesn't that count? do people who lived and died before the birth og jesus go to hell for not worshipping someone who didn't exist yet? does that make sense? no!
If you take the Bible as a whole, from cover to cover, it makes perfect sense.
first of all the bible does not make perfect sense and even if it did that would not mean that it was divine truth, are you saying anything that makes sense is the truth? there are major flaws about the world and how it works in the bible, stuff we know now that they didn't know then, it's not an insult to the bible
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Evangelist
USA
787 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2003 : 12:12:40 PM
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honeybadger,
"so maybe there was a big flood, that's not the same as a flood that wipes out the entire human population, there is a difference you know, besides how could anyone record a flood if they were drowned in it?"
There were eight survivors of the flood from whom we are all desendents. I am sure it was a subject of conversation later on.
"because the greek myths were written before the OT was so unless you're implying the jews went back in time...?"
It would depend on the dates you assign to different stories etc. My point was simply that you cannot know for sure which was the orginial story and which was a imitation.
"and i'm sure other cultures have borrowed stories from the bible, so what? i'm not claiming that greek mythology is divine truth, the greeks didn't even claim it was divine truth, they had no sacred text"
The Bible does claim Divine Truth, which is one of the major difference between it and other mythology.
"an educational text from my biblical literature class last semester"
Probably a text based on the principles of "higher criticism" which does not accept the Bible as the Word of God.
"it's obvious to anyone with both texts and half a brain, and how are biblical teachings different from mythological ones? it's all mythology"
As I recall mythology has several gods where the Bible has only one. Most theology is about events between the gods and that the gods interact much like the people did.
"yes, but my point is how can you say only christians go to heaven when other cultures believed practically the same thing?"
In the time period we are talking about, Christianity did not exist, only the nation of Israel. Other cultures did not believe in anything resembling the God of the Old testament or the concepts of the Law of God.
"if they believed the same things why doesn't that count? do people who lived and died before the birth of jesus go to hell for not worshipping someone who didn't exist yet? does that make sense? no!"
People at that time didn't have to believe in Jesus, but in the God of Israel. Their faith looked forward to coming the Messiah who take away their sins forever. None of the other cultures or nations had such a belief system.
"first of all the bible does not make perfect sense and even if it did that would not mean that it was divine truth, are you saying anything that makes sense is the truth?"
If you consider that the Bible is 66 seperate books written of 1600 years by several different authors, the fact that it fits together perfectly without contradiction makes it divine truth.
"there are major flaws about the world and how it works in the bible, stuff we know now that they didn't know then, it's not an insult to the bible"
I am not aware of any "major flaws" about the world and how it works. In fact, I have found the Bible to be very insightful in helpping me understand "how it works", when the world was telling me something different.
Evangelist Mike |
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oldstudent
USA
224 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2003 : 1:11:50 PM
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This string is so funny (and sad) that I won't even comment past laughing.
Jim
Joshua 24:15d
"But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." |
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honeybadger
USA
542 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2003 : 2:31:55 PM
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People at that time didn't have to believe in Jesus, but in the God of Israel
they didn't, they believed in the greek gods, d'uh |
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Will
United Kingdom
343 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2003 : 5:46:55 PM
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Hi Honeybadger,quote:
Originally posted by honeybadger
everybody copied everybody else.
It's fascinating, isn't it? We get so hung up on how old the OT is and stuff, and all these Christian/Jewish claims for it, that it's easy to forget it didn't happen in a vacuum, and like other religions and systems/records of mythology it came from somewhere, and borrowed and developed earlier myths and stories as well as inventing its own.
I like the old Babylonian/Sumerian stuff. Do you know the Epic of Gilgamesh? It's thousands of years pre-Genesis, and includes probably the oldest Flood-myth that we've got. The Babylonian 'Noah' was a king called Uta-napishti (in Sumerian, Ziusudra). He was warned about the Deluge by the god Ea, who told him to build a boat. Older than the Biblical account, clearly this story formed the basis for the Noah myth.
There are a lot of themes and stories from that area (Babylon, Akkadia, Sumer, etc.) which prefigure later stories recorded in the Bible. For example, Sargon, king of Akkade, says in one legend,
My mother, a priestess, conceived me and bore me in secret,
She put me in a basket of reeds, sealed its lid with pitch;
She cast me adrift on the river from which I could not arise,
The river bore me up and brought me to Aqqi, a drawer of water.
Sargon lived about a thousand years before Moses; the similarity is unmistakable. The influence of these early myths on Old Testament legends is amazing. |
Edited by - Will on 13 Jul 2003 5:47:58 PM |
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