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socratic
Andorra
363 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2003 : 3:52:29 PM
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How could a devout christian not want a theocracy?
Sure, the bible says you are to submit to the government, but that doesn't mean that a christian shouldn't want his government to be as christian as possible.
And wouldn't any elected christian be expected to adhere to the word of his lord and savior above all else? Even the constitution if it is within his power?
Isn't this what we are seeing right now?
The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. |
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mike_decock
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2003 : 4:11:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by socratic
How could a devout christian not want a theocracy?
Sure, the bible says you are to submit to the government, but that doesn't mean that a christian shouldn't want his government to be as christian as possible.
Over the long term, I think that a theocracy can only be maintained by means of a totalitarian dictatorship which suppresses education of the public. Otherwise it is only a matter of time before the population revolts against the theocracy for misinterpretation of the scriptures. The Reformation is a good example of this scenario.
The other problem is that political motivations will end up defining doctrine instead of doctrine defining political decisions. The establishment of the Church of England is a good example of this.
-Mike...
"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing."
~Socrates~ |
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socratic
Andorra
363 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2003 : 5:28:05 PM
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So does that mean you think that a christian is compelled by his beliefs to be loyal to christian theology moreso than anything else?
And if so, wouldn't any oath or pledge to a nation be qualified?
The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. |
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mike_decock
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2003 : 9:37:52 PM
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quote:
So does that mean you think that a christian is compelled by his beliefs to be loyal to christian theology moreso than anything else?
Yes. I think that almost all Christians place "God" before "Country". It's part of the faith: God first, everything else is secondary.
quote:
And if so, wouldn't any oath or pledge to a nation be qualified?
I don't understand your question here...
-Mike...
"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing."
~Socrates~ |
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Shaun
USA
1064 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2003 : 12:50:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by socratic
So does that mean you think that a christian is compelled by his beliefs to be loyal to christian theology moreso than anything else?
Yes.
Shaun |
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socratic
Andorra
363 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2003 : 06:00:44 AM
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What I mean is if he makes a pledge, such an oath for an office he won, it isn't sincere if he is really subjective to his theological beliefs.
The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. |
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mike_decock
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2003 : 09:10:49 AM
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quote:
What I mean is if he makes a pledge, such an oath for an office he won, it isn't sincere if he is really subjective to his theological beliefs.
This is true.
You could even argue that Christian doctrine forbids public service. You can't be a servant of God as well as a servant of the public in public office:
Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
-Mike...
"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing."
~Socrates~ |
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AtheistEXTREME
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 6:04:53 PM
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quote:
Sure, the bible says you are to submit to the government, but that doesn't mean that a christian shouldn't want his government to be as christian as possible.
Socratic,
Your way of thinking would be great...if everyone on this planet were Christian. Why do you think America works so well?....because chruch and state are separated. We've had bad experiences in the past (HENRY VIII; CHARLEMANGE) when government controls religion and visa versa...this also leads to discrimination against those who are not Christian and a theocracy forces them to obey government/religious rules which they don't necessarily agree with. And to force those who don't believe to believe goes against the Christian teaching. We wouldn't want to start another inquisition!
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something..."
-Plato- |
Edited by - AtheistEXTREME on 15 Mar 2003 6:08:59 PM |
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oldstudent
USA
224 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2003 : 10:42:24 PM
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Surprise !! I have to agree that a theocracy with any man heading it up would in time (short or long) would become a totalitarian society. Read Romans and see how Paul speaks of submission to authority (as long as it doesn't compel you to break God's laws). We are told to spread the word and we couldn't do it staying in our own country and not coming out.
Besides, Christianity is a choice, not a forced belief. Forcing people to believe or face deportation wouldn't be loving my neighbor.
Jim
Joshua 24:15d
"But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." |
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ChristKing
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2003 : 10:06:35 AM
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Socratic,
I agree with you completely!
What truly devout Christian would not want a Christian Theocracy?
A Christian theocracy is not a dictatorship or a totalitarian form of government, nor is it a violation of the biblical truth of separation of church and state that God had instituted in the Hebrew Republic between Moses and the Levites. A Christian theocracy is simply God over government and God over the church, not the church over government.
The responses to your post reflect the common misconception of a Christian theocracy. Many only know a Moslem or Buddhist theocracy because they have either seen it or studied it and it’s miserable failings. Very few have studied a true Christian theocracy. The Hebrew Republic was such a theocracy. God not Moses nor any other dictator ruled it. They had the first republic with the Scriptures or the Law as their constitution.
The American form of government was a copy of the Hebrew Republic that was practiced in Geneva (Calvin), Scotland (Knox), Holland (William and Mary), England (Cromwell and William and Mary) and New England (Hooker in Connecticut). The Hebrew Republic, as God designed it, was a constitutional form of government with separation of church and state and elected officials. It was a model for use by all nations.
When God’s Laws rule there is freedom, when they don’t then man’s laws will rule and it always, always, results in tyranny. This was the great battle in Geneva, Scotland, Holland, England and in the American Revolution. The King said, Rex Lex, or the King is Law, and the great Christian political theorists said no, it is Lex Rex, the Law is King and they explained the Law was God’s Law not man’s law. As a matter of fact, Samuel Rutherford, a Christian Calvinist who wrote on political theory and greatly influenced John Locke, wrote a book entitled Lex Rex, which was a bestseller during the American Revolution.
This political theory as revealed by God is brilliant! What it says in effect is this, God gives us our laws and our rights not the state nor man, therefore only God can take away our laws and rights and not the state nor man. If man gives us laws and rights then man can take them away. We don’t want that, and history has proved that out!
You can see the influence this biblical doctrine has had on our constitutional form of government and the Declaration of Independence. I mean consider the very words of our founding in the Declaration of Independence,
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Today most Americans and their representatives don’t even understand this basic founding principle and they think our rights and laws come from men or from the state. So as a result, many of our rights and godly laws are being taken away by men and the state under the guise that they are the originators of our laws and rights.
It’s so sad!
No King But King Jesus!!!
P.S. I know many will immediately demonstrate their ignorance of scripture and their indoctrination into the humanistic understanding of history they learned in school and will rush out with many posts on how the Hebrew Republic was not a republic and how America was not founded on the Hebrew Republican principles. So I will post as a separate post a very brief demonstration of scripture and history evidencing these truths.
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ChristKing
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2003 : 10:26:33 AM
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As promised in my previous post, here is just a very few of the numerous scriptural evidences of the Hebrew Republic and how these political idea's were revealed from heaven by God to His people:
Elections of the Hebrew Republic
DEU 1:13 'Choose wise and discerning and experienced men from your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.'
EXO 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
The direction of Moses to the people, upon that occasion, is very explicit. His words are, “Choose wise and discerning and experienced men from your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.” The meaning is, You elect the proposed officers, and I will commission and induct them into office. It is very observable, that these magistrates were to be taken out of all the people, and not from any privileged class. The only qualifications for office required were, that they should be "able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness,” "wise men, and understanding, and known among their tribes." The possession of these high attributes was enough; no other patent of nobility was required. Mr. Jefferson's test of official competency is expressed in the three interrogatories, "Is he honest? Is he capable? Is he faithful?" If he had added a fourth, "Does he fear God?" he would have had the Mosaic test to a tittle. Moses demanded four qualifications in a civil ruler, viz. ability, integrity, fidelity, and piety.
JOS 18:4 Give out from among you three men for each tribe: and I will send them, and they shall rise, and go through the land, and describe it according to the inheritance of them; and they shall come again to me.
When the land of Canaan was to be divided among the tribes, Joshua addressed all Israel thus: " Give out from among you three men from each tribe, and I will send them," "Give out from among you;" that is, "Select, choose fur yourselves."
JDG 11:11 Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and captain over them: and Jephthah uttered all his words before the LORD in Mizpeh.
When Jephthah was made judge, it is expressly said, "The PEOPLE made him head and captain over them." These instances, and others which might be cited, prove, that the great principle, that rulers should be elected by the ruled, that authority should emanate from those over whom it is to be exercised, was fully embodied in the Hebrew Constitution.
The Hebrew Republic’s Constitutionalism
DEU 17:18 "Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this law on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests.
DEU 17:19 "It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes,
DEU 17:20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel.
DEU 31:26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.
JOS 1:1 Now it came about after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, that the Lord spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' servant, saying,
JOS 1:7 "Only be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go.
JOS 1:8 "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.
1SA 10:25 Then Samuel told the people the ordinances of the kingdom, and wrote them in the book and placed it before the Lord. And Samuel sent all the people away, each one to his house.
The law was a separate branch of government as “a check” on rulers. This is the origin of separation of powers.
ISA 33:22 For the Lord is our judge, The Lord is our lawgiver, The Lord is our king; He will save us –
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oldstudent
USA
224 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2003 : 1:05:31 PM
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CK,
You are correct in so many ways but wrong in many ways. The Hebrews are the basic model of the USA with many differences though.
1. The ONLY worship allowed under the Law was worshipping the Almighty, in America, whatever or whoever you worship is ok.
2. The Law mad offenses against God were against the Law unlike in the USA.
This is just 2 very big differences between our country and the Jewish society of old under God's Law.
Unless God will administer the day to day operation and set all the new laws Himself, then we have men (or women) running the show and have to depend on them to do what is right, just not in thier eyes.
Jim
Joshua 24:15d
"But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." |
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ChristKing
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2003 : 11:22:55 AM
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oldstudent,
You are referring to the USA of today. This USA of today is only a watered-down after effect of the great America of old.
The original 13 colonies, the first constitution in America from "The Constitution State" of Connecticut, The New England Confederation, and all state laws of that period forbade under law heresy or the established worshipping any other God but the God of the Old and New Testaments. It was modeled exactly after of The Hebrew Republic.
It was only later when we let enlightened thinkers, as the days of Moses when Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and the son of Reuben, tried to “enlighten Moses,” change our state laws that resulted in the America you see today.
As you can see, it didn’t improve things!
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Philologus
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2003 : 2:36:14 PM
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There is a historical precedent to this... its called the Dark Ages. Human technological development practically ceased due to the fact that the only people that were literate were members of the Church. And they kept it that way. People with original thoughts were shunned, or killed. Good example, Galileo. Galileo brought Copernican theory into the spotlight, and really irked the Church. Irked them to the point of near excommunication...
Now, do we want a society that ignores plain scientific facts? I will gurantee that this will happen. The only way for a theocracy to work is by intellectual suppression.
Another example, the radical Islamic countries. Run by a THEOCRACY. Interestingly enough, a theocracy based on the same deity that you worship. Thats what will happen.
Those who refuse to reason are fools, those who cannot reason are ignorant, those who are afraid to reason are slaves.
- Lord Byron |
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ChristKing
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2003 : 9:29:13 PM
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Philologus,
The Dark Ages were and are the period of time when Jesus Christ, who is all knowledge and truth, is pushed out of society in order to enthrone fallible puny human reason.
You bring up a most excellent example with Galileo, who was a Christian, who didn’t fight the church at all but rather fought the Catholic Religion. The Catholic Religion had compromised the faith, abandoned Jesus Christ and adopted the pitiful “god” of human reason that you would push on us again today. The Catholic Religion had embraced the philosophy of Aristotle, as encouraged by Aquinas, which taught that the sun and the entire universe revolved around the earth. Aquinas and the Catholic theologians attempted to prop up this pagan philosophy with numerous scripture verses stating for example that “the sun stood still in the sky,” or “the sun set or rose.”
Then came the Reformation! The Reformation pushed out the Dark Ages and brought in the marvelous Light of Jesus Christ and all true knowledge. John Calvin taught that the Catholic theologians were too wrapped up in “reason” and “Aristotle reason” at that, and therefore their understanding of scripture was polluted and faulty. Calvin taught that the verses the Catholic theologians were using such as “the sun stood still in the sky,” or “the sun set or rose” were not meant to be astronomy lessons but rather were inspired by the Holy Spirit to be taught to people who understood the sun as moving from their perception on earth. Calvin rightfully taught that the Holy Spirit was teaching people from their perception of understanding. In other words, the Holy Spirit had to "step down" and teach "at our level!" If the Holy Spirit had taught that the earth had “stopped revolving” instead of "the sun standing still" or that sunsets and sunrises were "the earth revolving" the message would have been utter nonsense to the people and none would have understood it.
Calvin and the Reformation teachings were a direct attack on the Catholic Religion, which had also taught that their teachings were always infallible. Calvin and the Reformation taught that they were not only fallible, but they were down right corrupt and full of faulty human reason. Therefore, the Reformation encouraged science and exploration of all God’s creation and that what indeed God had truly ordained man to do was to "look into creation." The Reformation opened up the scriptures which clearly taught that God had given man dominion over all creation to cultivate, discover and explore His creation in order to improve his life on earth and to better understand, marvel and worship God.
As a result of this “opening up” of scripture, many Catholic theologians began agreeing with Calvin and the Reformers in their interpretation of scripture and began to support Galileo against the Pope. Well, now the Pope was in a quandary! The Pope desired to support his friend Galileo but that meant he would be siding with Calvin and the Reformation against the historical Catholic doctrinal heritage which was rooted in Aristotle and the doctrine of infallibility. The Pope chose Aristotle and infallibility and all the wonderful Dark Age human reason it had embraced over the years.
Galileo sided with the true church, Calvin and the Reformation and their interpretation of scripture against Aristotle and the Catholic Religion.
The Galileo incident was just another wound by the Reformation and the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the perverted Catholic teachings that had ushered in the Dark Age of human reason.
Your faulty understanding of Galileo is nothing more than the standard government indoctrination history course that is designed to strike at Christianity. It is nonsense and just plain bad history! May I encourage you to “think outside the box” and trust in God’s Word, it is always true and faithful and will never let you down.
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Edited by - ChristKing on 31 Mar 2003 9:48:23 PM |
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ChristKing
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2003 : 9:30:40 PM
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ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
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Edited by - ChristKing on 31 Mar 2003 9:34:43 PM |
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