| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jayceeii |
Posted - 10 Dec 2002 : 11:50:46 AM
Let me give a brief description of my life experiences, so that you have some idea of my position. I was born and raised a Christian, in the Lutheran Church of America in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I was baptized and confirmed, and thought myself a heartfelt believer in the divinity of Jesus Christ. After I went to college, I began reading voraciously in world literature. The first place I started was Atheism, reading works like Bertrand Russell’s “Why I am not a Christian” and by another author, “The Death of God.” I became an Atheist, and renounced Christianity by sending a letter to my former Pastor. Like the dunce that he was, he shared this letter with my parents. Among Christians, there is no individuality. You cannot break free from your parents. I sent him a letter, individual to individual, and he shared it with my parents. The pastors and priests of Christianity have no idea what real religion is about. They spout scripture, chapter and verse, like thoughtless parrots or drainpipes pouring raw sewage into fresh water. When Jesus said that His followers must be ready to renounce father, mother, sister and brother, what do Christians suppose that He meant? Obviously, He meant we should maintain close ties to family, and when a person seeks independence, we should speak to his family in an ugly and brutal attempt to coerce and manipulate him back into conformity. Such action is like slime from the very pits of hell. Each man is independent, and should be treated with respect as an individual. Whose responsibility is my salvation, if it not my own?
My heart could not remain with Atheism. Even as I espoused this theory during the day, morning and evening I practiced meditation under the guidance of an illumined teacher, Eknath Easwaran. This person preached the unity of world religions on the basis of similar experiences that the mystics of each obtain. I teach the unity of world religions on this basis, and another as well. For a time, I tried to re-embrace Christianity, seeking a “born again” experience with full enthusiasm, but coming up dry and unsatisfied. I said all the things that Christians instruct a person to say: “Jesus Christ, I want you to come into my life. I accept you as my Lord and Savior, and will seek to live my life only for you.” I said this with a sincere heart, and maintained this attitude for more than a month. Then I came to the conclusion that the advice of the Christian community was not effective. I tried it, and I had no inner or outer experience that was any different from my normal life. All this time, I continued meditation, never missing a day. The method invented by Eknath Easwaran is to go through the words of a memorized inspirational passage slowly in the mind, letting each word drop like a pearl into a still pond. During my Christian period, I meditated only upon Christian passages, such as the Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi.
I abandoned Christianity, and went to live near my guru, in Petaluma, California. At this point, my meditation deepened considerably. I had merely to sit down, close my eyes, and begin concentrating on the passage to achieve higher and more wonderful ecstatic states. I did not think my experience unusual, but assumed that all around me experienced more profound states than I. Meditation was my favorite activity, though in accordance with my guru’s instructions I also maintained a balance of activities in the world, holding a day job and working on evenings and weekends at the ashram on selfless tasks, in my case helping in the publishing facility, Nilgiri Press. I went on this way for some years, each day sweeter than the one before it, for without knowing it I had somehow learned to tap the inner spring of joy, a spring that exists in the heart of every man as well. The teachings of religion are intended to unlock the gates to happiness. Christianity was not meant for those whose spiritual consciousness has been awakened, who have developed a hunger and yearning for experience of the divine. It is meant for those who are satisfied to trust what appears to be the statements of an authoritative figure, who can wait until death to see God! I could not wait. I wanted to see God now, today! I felt a tremendous restlessness that drove me relentlessly, day and night. I meditated four hours each day, and these hours passed very quickly, for my ecstasy was profound. I repeated the mantram, the name of Rama, at every opportunity. I have calculated that I repeated it about a hundred million times in the twelve-year period of my sadhana. I spent every spare moment at the ashram, helping in selfless work which to me was not labor, but sweet release from the immense energies that meditation seemed to be releasing in my mind and body. I was mad for God in those days, and eventually the other ashram residents concluded that I was actually mad, fools that they were.
I was forcefully ejected from the ashram, and spent about a year wandering about the countryside, with God as my only guide, lost in wonder at His power expressed in all those around me. If you say to me, “It must have been difficult to live a life of renunciation in America,” I will say, “You are right.” In America the concept of the wandering holy man is foreign. All those who do not possess money are thought to be bums and profligates, dissolute, hopeless and despised by society. I was treated like a bum by every one I met, but I could still see the Father behind their vacant smiles of derision, and on I went. At last I concluded that the life of a wandering sannyasin was not the best in America, and I went back to school to earn a degree in Microbiology and Chemical Engineering. I found a nice job that pays well, and abandoned the religious life entirely. Then, to my surprise, approximately one year ago I was awakened by the dweller inside my body, whom I will not identify to you although I know him. I underwent a series of very intense experiences, which I have described in several writings that I have been working on this past year. These experiences are in line with those described in Hindu mysticism of savikalpa and then nirvikalpa samadhi. Since this time, I have sought to do the will of the Father, talking to various people and writing to some as well. So far, I have been completely ignored. Last week He prompted me to visit this forum, showing me which links to click upon, and which individuals to address. Like a tiger I pounced upon this group, and like a tiger I will bound away when I am no longer wanted. I want nothing from any of you. I rejoice in the freedom of the Self, and go where I want and when, lacking nothing. Like a lion I roar, and like a lion I rejoice in my strength. I do not believe any of you can conquer me in debate, though you may certainly try to do so.
My first book was a general description of the spiritual life and the best tactics to use to make spiritual progress. It does not have a title yet. My second book details the seven-fold Way of Love that I give to mankind. It is almost complete. A third book that I am working on examines the Gospel of Luke, extricating the truth spoken by the Lord from the morass of superstition and half-truth with which the Christian world has surrounded it. I do not expect that anyone will be interested in reading my writings. I am used to being ignored, scolded and ostracized, but it is nothing to me. I have nothing to gain here. My Father insisted that I write these things, and so I wrote. Whether any other on earth will ever read them is purely a matter of His will, nothing more than this. I do as He commands, and however heavy these commands may appear to the outside world, to me they are always sweet and light. He is always one step ahead of me, knowing that which is best, and better than I could have wanted for myself. If I end my life in a gutter, dying of starvation, I shall at least have the compensation of knowing that I have met that supreme One, and witnessed His glory. What is my life to me? I throw it away! Unlike the mass of humanity, I know that I shall be back, and that when I return I shall be greater still. The world is trapped in the death-grip of materialism. There is not a drop of real devotion to God to be found anywhere. Everyone’s eyes are glazed over, ever gazing at the “spectacular wonders” of science technology. Is there anything that man cannot do? No, nothing, assuredly, except for the only thing that matters, and that is to conquer death. Only the saints and sages of the world have done this, and I too stand on a higher plane, laughing at these high mysteries that terrify the world! My soul is immortal, deathless, and free! I shall return to earth, again and again in freedom, bringing God’s message to mankind whether he wishes to hear it or no! This I declare, and if it is the Father’s will, may it be so!
Christianity is dead. No one really expects the Lord Jesus to appear, in the flesh as He did before. Any who would dare to claim this would be immediately thrown into a mental asylum and forced to take anti-psychotic drugs. The fools would not be aware that Jesus is no human being, and that their drugs would have unpredictable effects upon His divine mind that might cause the Father to experience extreme rage. They would put Him, the lamb of God, on their conveyor belt of scientific “wisdom” and throw Him in with those who truly are mentally ill. I know you, Christians! Your minds are terrible beds of sin, and you love your sin! You would not give it up for anything! You are going to a heaven, of which you have no conception, and fear a hell which you understand even less. If a prophet should arise among you, what would be your response? You will say, “The Bible is complete. No more prophets are allowed. Away with you!” Like children or toddlers you cling to your “blankies,” your little black books, bound up so nicely and so complete, quoting chapter and verse until you make the rest of us sick! What is the Bible? It is toilet paper! I wipe myself with the Acts of the Apostles and the grotesque letters of the New Testament, as well as the boring and pointless vast majority of the Old Testament. You cling to Paul and the other apostates, his friends and yours, the enemies of the living Christ, ignoring the words of the Lord Jesus Himself! At least I know which portions of the Bible to use for wiping: you wipe yourselves with the Gospels of the Lord and the sayings of Moses and the Prophets, the only portions of the Bible that I still respect.
Kick me out of your forum! Yes, kick me out and retreat into your comfy little shell of a religion, that twisted version of reality that you call faith and which would make Jesus retch! “He thinks too much for us. These ideas are really too radical. They make us uncomfortable. Let us use our power (the power given to you by that very Lord Jesus whom you now despise) to kick this person out of our pretty little forum. We are such good Christians. How dare he disturb our quiet and peaceful meditations (upon our hell-spawned creeds and blasphemous, rude misinterpretations of the Son of God).” I know you! Every night you pray, “Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.” A real man or woman does not want to wait for death to search for God; only those who are already dead inside their hearts are satisfied with such a crude, cold and lifeless excuse for a religion. A real aspirant, on fire with love for God and desiring to see Him always, prays instead, “Now I lie down to sleep, a little richer inside, a little better human being, someone who has striven hard this day on the path to Self-realization. I taste of that joy which is a portion of the bliss that shall yet be mine, though a million times greater, and I drink deeply of the sweet nectar arising from my own soul as a result of my spiritual effort. If I should die tonight, than I am ready, for I have confirmed in my own life the truth of the scriptures that I am not this physical body, but the soul contained within this body. I see clearly that I did not arise out of nothing, and have lived many lives before this one. How can I fail to be reborn, in a new body, to take up the spiritual quest with renewed energy and enthusiasm?”
Yes, my friends, reincarnation is reality, and Jesus knew this. The heart of man is hard indeed! As Krishna, the Avatar told the truth about reincarnation, and the ugly, unfair and despicable caste system is the result! As Jesus, He pretended that man has but one life so that the idea of equal rights for all could arise. No one can tell the spiritual state of another, unless he is an illumined man, and therefore wholly incapable of any type of discrimination. Man ever rejoices in power over others. In Hinduism, the monstrous caste system was born because the people were told the whole truth. In Christianity we were told that the dead shall rise again, which is a half-truth. They rise again and again, fools, every time they are reborn! Do you really think people will arise from their graves like zombies, no matter how long they have been dead? Many Christians actually believe this, and cannot see past this most obvious deception, which was intended to, and did have, a specific psychological effect upon man. When Jesus returns, He will be amazed that we have not figured this all out on our own, since it is so obvious, and yet we have not. God the Father Himself takes each soul at death to a resting place, where it is recharged prior to its next birth. He places each soul in its destined body when it is still in the zygote stage, just prior to implantation in the uterine wall. I am very sorry, Christians, but He does this! You cannot tell these things to a society until it is ready. Would you prefer that the whole world be in the grip of an implacable caste system, throwing its gnarled and wooden fingers over all creativity and freedom everywhere? I forget, though, you are Christians and cannot think. Quote me chapter and verse, then. Do your worst. I spit upon your creeds, and I spit upon your religion! I sweep the words of the apostles and Paul from before my sight, as loose chaff is scattered by a horrific tornado! Only the words of Jesus will stand the test of time, but you do not listen to Him, only to those evil men who started your God-forsaken institutions. Have it your own way. I rejoice in the presence of the Father, and I stand in His will. May it be done, and may it be done fully.
A certain person visited an isolated island in the South Pacific, on a journey of exploration for his father, who was a king. He came in a tiny ship, not large enough to carry substantial supplies, but he did have a spare keg of nails. After eating with the natives, and promising to return, he left the keg of nails, explained to the natives how to make more nails, and went his way. In his absence, the people did not know what to do with the nails, for the nail-man had only given them vague promises of a use to which they might be put upon his return, mumbling something about “structures.” Deciding that the man must have been a deity of some kind, they formed a cult, the “Cult of the Nail-Man.” They put the keg of nails in the center of the village, and began to worship the nails. Some of the natives even wounded themselves with the nails, for wasn’t this a holy act? They created an entire priesthood devoted to creating more nails using raw materials from a mining operation on the island. Soon they had a huge collection of nails, kept displayed in a well-organized shrine at the center of the village. The original person who had brought the nails unfortunately died at sea, but because his father had many sons, he sent another in his place. This one came in a mighty ship, with many wooden planks of the finest timber, for the nails left by the first son were meant to be used to build houses for the natives, to protect them from the weather, for they were very stupid natives and lived out in the open, without shelter. When this second son arrived, the natives became very angry. “You are not the nail-man!” they shouted. “Go away! These nails have a special purpose, and only the nail-man can explain it. What is more, they are holy and cannot be touched. They are sacred artifacts. We worship these nails; the nails are enough for us.” Flabbergasted and annoyed, out of spite the second son set adrift a small boat with some wooden planks having instructions on how to make coffins tacked to them. The natives found these planks, and heralded it as the second coming of the nail-man! Surely, the nail-man had seen to their crying need and supplied them with a use for the holy nails. Quickly they set about working and built a large supply of coffins, enough to bury the whole lot of them!
There was a second group of natives, who were disenfranchised and dissatisfied with the “Cult of the Nail-Man,” and had moved away from the village of their ancestors, forming a new, isolated group. They also had a cache of nails, and kept adding to it, but they followed a maverick leader who stated that surely there must be some practical use for these nails. As the second son was leaving the island, this group of natives spotted him and waved wildly for him to return! The second son met with this maverick leader, and since this person was open-minded about the purpose of nails, he left his entire supply of wooden planks and showed him how to build houses, which his little group proceeded to do with great joy and energy: “Now when it rains, we will no longer get soaked!” The other natives, seeing this, nevertheless clung to their old ways, which tradition dictated: “If rain was good enough for my father, and his father’s father, it is good enough for me too. The nail-man will eventually return, and then we will know the real purpose of the nails he left so long ago. Those others are fools for wasting their holy nails to build houses merely to protect themselves from the elements. They are surely damned to hell, for the nail-man will be wrathful upon his return, and will not spare them!” I choose not to explain this little story at this time. I have explained too much already, far too much. I doubt whether it has anything to do with me at all. If I say that it does, then I will be condemned. If I say that it does not, then I will lose my authority. Whatever the case may be, I continue boldly in my own way, despised by everyone that I know, and why not? At least God still has affection for me. What more would anyone care to ask for?
The same mighty spiritual being who appeared as Jesus also appeared as Krishna, Buddha, Mohammed, Rama, Lao-tse and in recent days, Chaitanya and Ramakrishna. India has many social problems, but it is the home of real religion, and it is where God has visited most frequently. The time has come for Christians to throw away their Bibles and embrace reality, the truth as it has been revealed to the Indians and will henceforth be revealed to man, in perpetuity. Man is a divine being residing in a physical body. He is the Self, the divine Atman, shining with radiance and full of infinite bliss, wisdom, and freedom. The original sin the Christians keep imagining that they see everywhere is merely the huge parcel of baggage that we all carry with us from our days as animals, striding about on earth without a care, killing and being killed, stealing and being stolen from, without repercussion. These things are all right for animals, but man must embrace his native divinity and live in accordance with it to retain the right to remain on earth as a human being. If he is evil and sinful, the Father righteously throws his soul back into the animal realm, there to remain until he is deemed sufficiently reformed. This is the hell Jesus spoke of, and it is real. It does not last forever, but it can last a billion years or more, for many are the animal souls eager for their chance to become human. The Father is fair, and gives many a chance while those who have ruined their opportunity stew and fret, oinking where before they spoke, trotting where before they walked, learning the error of their ways. Jesus spoke from compassion to simple, primitive minds, and His speech has kept many from this hell, and thus He is rightly called the Savior of mankind. For those recently arisen from animals, it is enough to stay out of hell. For those who are more spiritually evolved, this is never enough. Such people yearn for the vision of God, and wish to make efforts to grow closer to God and to become godly themselves. The mind may be purified of all sinful tendencies through spiritual practice. Christians do not believe this, but I laugh at them for this is what they are doing every time they follow one of Jesus’ injunctions, such as the one to love your neighbor as yourself. “Sure, Christians, sure. Such behavior has no effect at all upon your soul. It just increases your chances of going to heaven. Well I hope you enjoy yourself, because I will not be there!”
Jesus did speak of heaven, and this is also real. Every Christian I have ever met utterly ignores His statement that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Truly, no Christian understands anything that Jesus said, for He was a divine being and spoke with divine authority. No human can understand a God, although the illumined become fit to make an attempt. “What you do not understand, ignore. Surely some priest, somewhere, understands it and that is good enough.” This is the motto of the Christian. They take no responsibility for themselves, but allow the priests to interpret everything. They have no hunger for the real, living Lord. They are all but dead inside, but being honest Christians they likely will stay out of hell and be allowed to continue in their slow, plodding and insipid ways. Heaven is nothing other than the attainment of illumination. Jesus knew this; how could He not know, and say what He said? He also said that man was to be perfect, even as the Father in heaven is perfect. I have heard an ugly interpretation of this as meaning that we cannot ever hope to become perfect, but must wallow in our inherently sinful nature like pigs in slop. No. Jesus meant that man can become perfect, a divine being. Man can become Christ-like in truth, although he cannot become Christ who is a true God. Jesus set man’s foot upon the spiritual path, and the earnest followers of His travel on this path although they are completely misinformed about their destination and their minds are closed to any other interpretation than that heaven is a spiritual place full of golf courses and tennis courts, sort of like retirement. This is what they really believe! Or I have heard it said that in heaven we will “commune with God.” Well, why not commune with Him right now? The Hindu scriptures give clear instructions, and the Christian scriptures vague instructions, on how to do just this. Oh, but that is right. The Christian philosophy is to let Jesus take care of all such minor details as this: “We will just sit and wait for Him, like good sheep. We are indeed not thinking, rational men but sheep. Who understands this East-West dichotomy? Why should I even concern myself with it? Are the Hindus my brothers? No, they are among the lost. God is not intelligent enough to start more than one religion; there is no way He could be wise and powerful enough to work such a complex subterfuge upon His creatures.” Well, my Christian friends who hate me, you may indeed find out about God’s intelligence, although it is all between you and the Father. I know that He smiles upon me with delight from time to time; can you say as much?
Oh yes. You may wonder why I chose the screen name jayceeii, when my name is Kurt. It is a hotmail address, and jayceei was already taken.
Edited by - jayceeii on 10 Dec 2002 1:37:59 PM |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| jayceeii |
Posted - 28 Sep 2003 : 09:30:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Love Fountain
Hello Jayceeii,
Welcome.
quote:
There is not a drop of real devotion to God to be found anywhere.
Another judge huh? Don't underestimate what you do not perceive.
I see the love and pain within you no matter how much you try to suppress it. I can feel your confusion and desire to learn the truth but if there is not love for all, even Christians then you missed it and are no different.
Find love and live.
Bless you,
Love Fountain
Love Fountain,
My claim that there is no devotion to God to be found anywhere is of the nature of a challenge, not a judgment. I talk in this way from time to time, just to awaken my readers, and your response proves my technique works. If you have some real devotion to God, this is very good, and pleasing to me. I had thought I was all alone in the world, except for my Father’s presence, which is all the consolation that I need, although your well-intentioned offerings here clearly spring from a generous spirit and a warm heart. I love all beings, men and women, animals, birds, even plants and insects, with an equal love. Dearest to me, however, are those who return my love, value religion, and seek to lead lives in tune with the Creator’s wishes. I do not seek the truth; I know the truth, which I proclaim from the rooftops, although so far everything I say falls on deaf ears. I have a “Hawaiian” shirt, to the lapel of which I have affixed a pin that I bought in a Christian bookstore which says, simply, “Truth.” I wear this shirt from time to time, although no one, I am sure, notices the little pin. It is my opinion that Christians are spiritually advanced, but they are not intellectually advanced, because the Lord gave them a partial message the first time around. When He returns, He will need to tell them the full truth, uniting East and West in a new brand of religion, based on real and not merely poetic revelations. The same One started all the religions, which is a measure of our Creator’s Supreme Intelligence, and puts Jesus on a much higher plateau than where the Christians would place Him, as being part-man, part-God. He was all God, sharing with man a human body only! As a shepherd uses a rod to keep his sheep on the right trail, and so they avoid falling off of a cliff, so I prod the Christians with my vision of reality, which in my opinion they need very much to hear. You accuse me of not loving them, and it may be that history will support your point of view. On the other hand, the Christians may hear my voice, and update their understanding of reality from the ancient revelations, and my love be proven absolutely. |
| jayceeii |
Posted - 28 Sep 2003 : 09:06:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by eva
jayceeii, Welcome to the forums. Interseting journey you are on. I hope it is not over yet and you are still open to finding God.
Eva,
I am not journeying to God. I have found God. I am an illumined sage, a God-realized person. You will not be able to help me, although it may be that I can help you.
quote:
I too have met the Supreme One, Yahweh. And there is nothing that will ever compare to that one moment when time stood still. The things of this world truly do pale in comparison.
Say not that you have attained union with YHWH! This is high blasphemy, insulting to both your Creator and your own intelligence! Can you number the stars in the Galaxy? Do you know how many of them have life? Can you tell me yesterday’s newspaper headlines on the planet of life orbiting the leftmost star on Orion’s belt? YHWH can do all these things, and many more. If you cannot do them, then you have attained some spiritual state which is possible for humans, not full union with the Almighty! Not even the Avatar claims this, who calls Himself the Son of God. Since you are not a teaching sage, it is likely that you have attained the state known as dhyana, which is not the state called in the Hindu scriptures “God-realization,” but one of the forerunner states, in which the ego is retained. It is also possible you have attained savikalpa samadhi, although I would need a more detailed description of the experience to know for certain. How long did it last? Was it preceded by a period where it felt like you were facing evil in your mind? Did your third eye open? If it was savikalpa samadhi, the answers will be a few hours, no, and yes. If it was dhyana, the answers will be, a few minutes, yes, and no. I would also be able to tell, were I to meet you – but this is far from a possibility! |
| jayceeii |
Posted - 28 Sep 2003 : 08:58:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Daisy_
Just a suggestion: if you want people to actually read your posts, try to keep it short and to a single point at a time, at least initially.
Daisy,
It is easy to ask questions, but all questions are not easily answered. If you think my responses are too long, then you should report this to the moderator. He will come and tell me, “Guru Kurt, this forum is only meant for short, uncomplicated statements and responses. The people who come here do not have long attention spans, nor do they care overmuch about truth. They want things easy, pat, simple. They are not looking for spiritual friends; they are eager to tear their attention away from their computers to watch ‘Friends’ on television. They are not interested in real life! They do not care if you are a sage! They do not care, if you are the Lord Himself! Go away!” Then, indeed, I shall go away again, as I went away before. The maverick leader I predicted has arisen from among your midst, and even as I write these words carries my message out to mankind. I have given up hope on all of you; I only return because I think your questions are those that others may share, and I post all of this on my website, www.neochristians.com. In the future, perhaps a thousand years from now, people may have an interest in what I was thinking and doing at this stage of my life, and it is for them I write, not for any of you! These people will be different. They will have long attention spans, and will be able to follow complicated trains of reason. They will abandon their television sets for awhile, and pay heed to what has been said of reality in ages past, seeing if it does not still bear fruit for them in their present lives. They will care. They will be spiritually sensitive and aware. They will laugh at you, just as the Christians laugh at the Pharisees and Sadducees who continually challenged the Lord’s authority! I have many other priorities, besides this faith forum. I am writing books, essays, and poetry. Please, Daisy, do me a favor and tell the moderator to kick me out, so I can abandon this group once and for all, and for good! |
| jayceeii |
Posted - 28 Sep 2003 : 08:49:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Keith Russell
Your entire post is constructed of a series of claims, nothing more. Your claims in no way offer any evidence in favour of 'God's' existence, nor would a rational person find anything in them to induce one to believe in 'God'. To be rightly considered 'rational', a claim must be supported by at least some independently verifiable, non-contradictory evidence.
You say that 'God' can be neither proved or disproved. Even if that were true (and I don't believe that it is), it would mean that the claim that 'God' exists is an arbitrary one.
If a claim is arbitrary, if there is no evidence to support it, then there is--literally--no reason to believe it.
Keith.
Keith,
You are incorrect in stating that rational statements may be empirical only. There are many other types of rational statements, for instance certain if-then statements. “If there is a God (who created this world), then He is likely to be intelligent” is a rational statement, albeit conditional in nature. “If the human mind is too small to think all by itself, then it is possible God gives it ‘imprints’ with which it can somehow work, although it cannot go beyond these ‘imprints’ unless He wills it and enhances them” is another rational statement, although I do not say it is true or false. Beginning with conditional statements, we can make further rational statements supported by them, all within the “if-then” scenario we originally set up: “When God’s Son comes, He will not be recognized by anyone unless the Father ‘imprints’ their minds with His recognition, for they will be unable to break out of the mold wherein they have been placed.” We can develop alternative hypotheses, and bring in empirical evidence: “The unresponsiveness of man to the Lord (which has been observed) may be due to man’s ego, instead of to a lack of imprinting by the Father. The ego is characterized by a hardness of heart, and an inability to bend itself to comport to new information.” Now, this last sentence is based on personal observation (of mine, who claim sagehood for myself), which to my eyes is empirical, but which no other can witness save other sages. All of my statements are empirical, from my own point of view, which is to say they are subjective observations, subjective truths. This is the nature of spiritual communication, from sage to student. The student believes the words of the teacher, on the basis of his own personal observations of the teacher, of his speech, attitudes, and actions. Finding these things consistent, and likely springing from a higher inner source than that with which the student is in contact, the student “follows” the teacher in order to become a teacher himself one day, attaining what the teacher has attained, a process with which illuminati claim to be able to help, giving honor in turn to their own gurus of yore. Now, what is “reason?” To my way of thinking, the rational faculty is that which apprehends and describes reality, in a manner that is open, not closed, so that new apprehensions are always allowed in, should they prove better than the old ones. Sages (such as myself) claim to have found a reality which is beyond the data provided by the senses, hence beyond the realm of empirical proof by others, unless they begin the spiritual journey themselves on the basis of subjective experience, i.e. they find the sage’s words helpful, wise and true within the context of their personal lives. You will find that my statements are all rational ones, within this context, which is to say, presuming there are persons in the world who wish to begin the spiritual journey, they may find my ideas and suggestions helpful. Others, such as yourself, will reject them utterly, and if all people were to do so, I would have nothing further to say to man, but would go on my way, happier by reducing my burden of thought at needing to bend over so far to correct erroneous statements in which people make logical mistakes no child should make. You cannot reject me on the basis that my statements are irrational, for they are all highly rational. You can only reject me on this basis, by saying, “I do not feel this inner spiritual ‘tug’ you claim should be present in my soul. I am not curious about my inner realities; I only wish to study outer realities. Your words are not helpful to me personally, although they may be helpful to others.” For you see, it is irrational on your part to say that because you feel no response, no others will respond. It could be the case on planet earth (as I say) that man arises from the animals, i.e. there is a transmigration of souls. In this case, those who are recently arisen from animals will not respond to the spiritual challenge sages present, but will laugh and go their way. Those who have been human a long time will respond, and will listen carefully to a teacher’s words. I have empirical evidence for this, for there are “saintly” personages among us, like Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and those who go to monasteries, just as there are animalistic people among us, such as serial killers and rapists. There is a progression or advancement of souls from animalist to saint, which occurs over many lifetimes of repeated human births. Like many of my statements, I cannot prove this to others, although I know it personally, as a fact, and state it with confidence. It is not an irrational statement because it does not bear empirical testing. It is a rational statement which apparently springs from a higher faculty of knowing than that with which you yourself are familiar. You can accept it as being likely, “believing” in my accounting of things, or you can reject it. You cannot reject it as being “irrational,” however. You can only reject it as not corresponding in any way, shape or form to your own personal, inner experience of life, and go your own way. It is my submission that there is only one fundamental question: is the soul immortal, and what is the nature of this immortality? If you do not care about this question, you are a fundamentally irrational being, laughing at its own inevitable destruction at death. Sages claim to show man a way to discover his own, personal immortality, and so those who laugh at sages are fundamentally irrational beings, who know not from where they come, or to where they go, but like stick figures poke fun at that which they do not understand, and do not want to understand. Sages should be taken seriously. You are going to die anyway; what’s there to lose? Try their techniques of meditation and other spiritual disciplines, and see if these don’t help to clear your eyes a little of the fog of egoism in which they claim you are submerged, and in which you will admit yourself to be submerged if you are spiritually advanced (as I say, on the basis of my own experience of sadhana, spiritual effort). There is a realm of reason far beyond the senses. In nirvikalpa samadhi, a person enters a world of pure spirit, apprehending clearly the immortality of his own soul, and its divinity as well. I say it is even possible for you, Keith, to attain this state, discovering the truth of everything I claim. Laugh if you wish. Dismiss me offhandedly, and resume your life of sense stimulation with full gusto, if this is your desire. You will have to do better than you do here, however, if you wish to confute me with reason and logic, to which I also lay claim, all my spiritual experience notwithstanding! |
| jayceeii |
Posted - 28 Sep 2003 : 08:44:59 AM
Faithwalker:
quote:
I'll wait for the movie!
William Blake said, “Listen to the fool’s reproach; it is a kingly title!” There will indeed be movies made, and you will see them – in your next life, who cannot bring your intelligence to bear in this one! |
| Faithwalker |
Posted - 12 Dec 2002 : 2:24:53 PM
I'll wait for the movie!
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matt 7 13,14
Defender of the Faith
|
| Keith Russell |
Posted - 11 Dec 2002 : 2:28:25 PM
jayceeii:
Your entire post is constructed of a series of claims, nothing more. Your claims in no way offer any evidence in favour of 'God's' existence, nor would a rational person find anything in them to induce one to believe in 'God'. To be rightly considered 'rational', a claim must be supported by at least some independently verifiable, non-contradictory evidence.
You say that 'God' can be neither proved or disproved. Even if that were true (and I don't believe that it is), it would mean that the claim that 'God' exists is an arbitrary one.
If a claim is arbitrary, if there is no evidence to support it, then there is--literally--no reason to believe it.
Keith.
Insults are not arguments. |
| jayceeii |
Posted - 11 Dec 2002 : 10:59:57 AM
quote:
jayceeii:
We may not be able to outwrite you, but debate has formal rules, and demands that claims be supported by independently verifiable, non-contradictory evidence.
Supernatural or completely subjective claims cannot be proven or disproven, and they are thus arbitrary--unsupported by evidence. Such claims are not part of debate, they are more akin to preaching.
If you wish to claim that none here can out-debate you, you'll have to start by abandoning any and all arbitrary claims. (You can think them, of course, but not use them when debating.)
Keith.
Insults are not arguments.
Some time ago I sent refutations of Atheistic arguments against the existence of God that I had written to a certain person. This person did not apparently read my essays as the unitary creations which they were, or try to understand my points in depth. For instance, in my cover letter I explicitly stated that I did not seek to prove the existence of God, but merely to show that His existence could not be disproved either. This person aggressively attacked almost every statement that I made, but it was clear to me that He was arguing against what he thought I was saying, rather than what I was actually saying. There were many parts that were not essential to my argument, and which I admitted openly were not essential, yet were attacked vigorously as though they were central points! I would state that “It is not possible to disprove God’s existence in this way,” and he would respond, “You cannot prove God’s existence in this way!” His whole attitude was very hostile to any discussion about God, it seems. He is a true Atheist, totally antithetical to all talk about God.
I will tell you what such people are like. A certain monastery adopted a young boy who was an orphan, and raised him in the monastic style. He never once saw a woman, and because the monastery had strict rules about discussing women, he never heard about them either. A rational being, he came to the conclusion that there was no such thing as women! As he grew older, he would occasionally run into references to women in the books that he read, and he would think, “There is no evidence to prove the existence of these ‘women.’ ‘Woman’ is just a concept that people have invented, for man is lonely and longs for companionship. He should stand up, and assert the nonexistence of women! This is the brave and rational attitude.” He even developed certain “proofs” against their existence. A new monk came to the monastery, who had recently divorced and was disconsolate. Occasionally, he would call his former wife on the phone and attempt to patch things up with her. Our “Anti-womanist” one day overheard this new monk talking with someone he was treating like a real “woman,” and concluded that he was delusional, talking only with himself. “How low man will sink, out of weakness!” he thought. Later, he confronted this monk and told him to his face that he was likely insane. The monk realized, with a shock, that this boy’s education had been somewhat lacking, and said, “Say, here. I was married to a woman, friend. We had children. Where do you think you came from, anyway? I tell you what, I’ll call her up and you can talk with her yourself. You will see, her voice is different from the male voice, sweeter and more musical. Then, later on I can have her come for a visit. We must remedy your ignorance!” The “Anti-womanist” replied, “I refuse to listen to these ‘voices’ on the phone. I refuse to go to a meeting with this ‘person.’ These are just delusional ideas that you have, and I call you insane!”
Spiritual teachers are in contact with the living Lord. They hold forth a phone for man to grasp, in the form of spiritual disciplines. Atheists, in refusing to even try spiritual disciplines like meditation, are refusing that a phone to the Lord even exists! This is not a rational position, but an irrational one. Simply because you have never met a person, and have seen no evidence of a person’s existence, does not imply the nonexistence of this person. All the Atheists’ 107 arguments against the existence of God are merely different varieties of this same attitude, that we have never seen Him, therefore He does not exist. The proper, rational attitude is, We have never seen Him, therefore He may not exist. I have nothing against Atheists, except when they try to infringe on territory that they should not infringe upon, and that is the minds of God’s true devotees on earth. When they seek to disprove God’s existence, they interfere with God’s friends. If they wish to assert non-belief in the existence of God, this is all very well, although it is a stale, dry, hopeless and vacant position. They should not, however, arrogantly assert that they can prove that someone whom they have not seen or experienced does not exist, for this confuses others who otherwise might wish to pick up the “God phone” and dial “111,” the number of the Lord, by seeking the guidance of an illumined teacher and beginning to deepen their own spiritual awareness.
Again, take the example of Helen Keller. Born without sight or hearing, how could anyone convince her that the other beings around her possessed these things? It took a long time to break through to her. If she instead adopted the Atheists’ attitude, she would conclude that sight and hearing were just delusive ideas for which she had no evidence, and therefore unreal. If she were in a group of similar people, they may learn to communicate by touch and develop their own philosophy, eventually “disproving” amongst themselves that the organs of vision and hearing even exist, and concluding that the rest of the world is deluded and insane. The illumined have spiritual eyes with which they see God, residing deep in the hearts of all those around them. They have spiritual ears with which they hear the voice of God, for the Atman of spiritual aspirants communicates with the teacher in special, hidden ways, of which the aspirant is not aware. If the truth must be told, Atheists who seek not merely to show that God may not exist, but to prove that he does not exist, are of a very low mindset. They seek to use the law of the herd, for they sense they are in the majority and those who make spiritual statements in the minority, and so they talk. I say their arguments are meaningless and vacant, and I laugh at them. This invisible being whom you “disprove” does exist. I know Him. I see Him every day, from morning until night. He also finds your arguments quite amusing. You are in the majority, and I am in the minority, so you will attempt take advantage of your position by calling me insane, proving yourself a scoundrel and a knave. Everything happens according to the Father’s will. If He wishes you to go away thinking that you have defeated me when in truth you have merely done this in your own mind and not in the court of God’s reason, then you will go away. If He wishes that some part of your dark and hopeless soul sees a glimmer of light, a potential for truth in my words, then you will stay to hear more. What have I to do with it? My Father takes care of all these things.
Truth has a higher existence than what worldly men agree among themselves. There is a higher reality underlying the physical world, which only the spiritually minded can apprehend. If you wish to assert that God does not exist, He is not bothered, so long as you draw morality from some other source, as perhaps the idea that the unhappiness of others can never bring you happiness. When you try to prove that He does not exist, He grows wrathful, for you mislead many with false arguments. All arguments attempting to prove that God does not exist are false. It is not possible to construct a rational argument that He does not exist, for He does exist and can be known by man. I will tell you something else. What rational being wishes its own nonexistence? Atheists squeal, like babies, “We have the right to assert that we disappear into nothingness at death!” God sees this, and with a humorous chuckle, replies, “Sure, you have that right. I’ll still be waiting for you at death, I will still take your soul for its rest period, and I will still put you in a fresh body in about fifty years, where you will again arise to spit in my eye with your irrational brand of ‘reason.’” I assert that these things happen. You cannot prove to me that they do not, for I know for a fact that they do. I cannot prove that they happen, but I can unerringly and unfailingly show that any proofs that they do not occur are false. This is the rational standoff between me and the Atheists. There is a middle position, where the possibilities of both existence and nonexistence of God are allowed. The spiritual aspirant takes this position, then adds: “It does not seem likely to me that all these religions could have arisen out of nowhere. Would so many gather around something that was inherently false? There are people who claim to have seen God, and since they seem to have much more powerful minds than mine, and seem to have access to deeper springs of truth, I think these claims may indeed be real. I will seek to find God, too, applying spiritual disciplines. Kurt claims that if I begin such disciplines, I will immediately begin to experience greater joy in my life, and that this is evidence for the existence of the Atman deep within my own heart. Well, let us see if he is right!”
Atheists attain a victory in their own minds over an imaginary foe, while the real, living God looks over their shoulder in amusement. They try to sweep religion under a rug, and feel like kings, having apparently proven that man comes from nowhere, and disappears at death. They assert that man has no soul, and that man’s heart is only an organ that pumps blood. Although they cannot really prove any of these things, to their own satisfaction they do, and I let them go. Religion dies upon the earth if the Atheists win, with hopelessness and despair reigning over all. I do not speak to such people, who are beyond hope and live in a fantasy world of their own, as irrational as the Christians who want Jesus to do everything for them. I speak to those among mankind who have a heart of feeling, who know what it means to love and be loved. I speak to those whose minds are open to broad, new possibilities, who wish to travel boldly into the frontier of spiritual reality, which is ever-fresh and exciting to experience. The soul of man does exist, and each man can plumb the depths of his own soul, purifying it of all evil and encountering directly the light that comes from within, the light of bliss and wisdom emanating from his own divine Atman. It may be that there are no such people on the earth today. It may be that materialism will win its final victory, here, now, this moment. If this should be the case, I am not bothered. I swim in the sea of blissful immortality, and like the white monkey Hanuman in one of the beautiful songs of Sri Ramakrishna, I eat sweet fruit from the tree of knowledge of God. If none care to hearken to my song of love, I go my own way. I witness the entire universe expanding within my own body. I hear the beautiful melody of my Father’s voice, who is my only playmate here on earth. Like mist I came to this forum, and like a ghost I will go, disappearing into the limitless space above that is darkness to you, and bright daylight to me. Shall I stay, or shall I, like Hanuman, declare, “Behold, I go, leaving a bitter fruit for you!”? We shall see.
Edited by - jayceeii on 11 Dec 2002 11:22:28 AM |
| eva |
Posted - 10 Dec 2002 : 7:24:46 PM
jayceeii, Welcome to the forums. Interseting journey you are on. I hope it is not over yet and you are still open to finding God.
quote:
the kingdom of heaven is within us
It is a perplexing statement isn't it? I have pondered over this one and what He meant by it. It goes along with the theme that we are now the temple and the spirit resides in us. I have found that piece of heaven in me...it is a peaceful place, full of joy and love.
quote:
I shall at least have the compensation of knowing that I have met that supreme One, and witnessed His glory
I too have met the Supreme One, Yahweh. And there is nothing that will ever compare to that one moment when time stood still. The things of this world truly do pale in comparison.
quote:
mind may be purified of all sinful tendencies through spiritual practice. Christians do not believe this,
I am not sure that is true. The Bible tells us to take every thought into captivity and into direct obedience to God. When I first read that I said...yeah right. But the one that is in me is stronger than the one of the world, so I have learned.
quote:
He also said that man was to be perfect, even as the Father in heaven is perfect.
With Christ, I can do all things.
quote:
Well, why not commune with Him right now?
The day of our spiritual rebirth is the day that our eternal life begins.
|
| Love Fountain |
Posted - 10 Dec 2002 : 6:29:38 PM
Hello Jayceeii,
Welcome.
quote:
There is not a drop of real devotion to God to be found anywhere.
Another judge huh? Don't underestimate what you do not perceive.
I see the love and pain within you no matter how much you try to suppress it. I can feel your confusion and desire to learn the truth but if there is not love for all, even Christians then you missed it and are no different.
Find love and live.
Bless you,
Love Fountain
|
| Daisy_ |
Posted - 10 Dec 2002 : 6:00:52 PM
quote:
Kick me out of your forum! Yes, kick me out and retreat into your comfy little shell of a religion, that twisted version of reality that you call faith and which would make Jesus retch!
What the heck are you on about?
Just a suggestion: if you want people to actually read your posts, try to keep it short and to a single point at a time, at least initially.
Otherwise, hi jayceeii!
Honi soit qui mal y pense. |
| Keith Russell |
Posted - 10 Dec 2002 : 3:42:48 PM
jayceeii:
We may not be able to outwrite you, but debate has formal rules, and demands that claims be supported by independently verifiable, non-contradictory evidence.
Supernatural or completely subjective claims cannot be proven or disproven, and they are thus arbitrary--unsupported by evidence. Such claims are not part of debate, they are more akin to preaching.
If you wish to claim that none here can out-debate you, you'll have to start by abandoning any and all arbitrary claims. (You can think them, of course, but not use them when debating.)
Keith.
Insults are not arguments. |
|
|
